Assessing Clients for Running Coaching

Speaker 1 0:00

So you're thinking about running but not sure how to take the first step . My name is Brian Patterson and I'm here to help . Welcome to Brian's Rompod . Welcome back to Brian's Rompod , and this is Brian Patterson talking . Now on to the second part of my discussion with Paul Piper , the first one being last week . So if you haven't had a listen , please do have a listen Now . Starting a coaching business in running industry is no small feat and Paul walks us through his initial step . So I asked him , as part of the second part of our discussion , how he assesses prospective clients , or as he calls them , co-cheese . I really do hope you enjoy our chat and , as I said , please do have a listen to the first part . So I know you said when we were corresponding , you said you know when you take them on , then basically , it will be like you know you to assess them . It can take up like a couple of hours or something .

Speaker 1 1:17

Yeah . So I mean , what are you looking for when you first , you know , when they first come to you ? I mean , what kind of questions are you going to be asking them ?

Speaker 2 1:29

Yeah , so I send out a questionnaire . I think it's maybe 20 or 30 questions and it just builds a real picture of their running background their history in running what their expectations are , what limits they might have around their working lifestyle . There's a few questions that touch on nutrition . I mean , I'm not a nutritionist , so I can't write diet plans , but I can provide guidance in certain areas , yeah , access to gyms , questions on treadmills , etc .

Speaker 2 2:01

What percentage they run on the roads in terms of injury prevention , injury history as well is very important and then we go into . So then we'd arrange either a meet up in person or , if it's not possible , sort of like on Zoom .

Speaker 1 2:18

Yeah .

Speaker 2 2:19

Yeah , it typically lasts anywhere from well over an hour to sometimes two hours . Yeah , so it can get quite in depth , all right , but I'll prepare beforehand and I'll build up a picture . Yeah , and the consultation is based around the questionnaire and , if anything , the client wants to ask .

Speaker 1 2:36

So you can pretty much assess from that first consultation .

Speaker 2 2:41

You get a broad idea and like a good foundation of knowledge on the client . Yes , okay , but it's an essential part of the coaching package to get off on the right foot . Yeah , definitely yeah .

Speaker 1 2:53

Okay , but also , at the same time , you'll know as to what is , you know , like . If they work full time , when can they run when you ? Know how often they're looking to run . Yeah , absolutely yeah .

Speaker 2 3:06

Yeah , so it's really important to build a running program that's achievable within normal working life because , yeah , we've all got stuff going on outside of life and we don't want to become overwhelming , so it's got to fit into working life as well . So yeah . And travel , sometimes for people who travel away from work and stuff .

Speaker 1 3:28

Have you had anyone come to you and said , well , I don't know if I really enjoy running , but I'd like to enjoy it , or something like that ? Or the majority of the people do . They kind of you know , say you know I enjoy running , but I want to take it to the next level .

Speaker 2 3:43

It generally tends to be that . The second one yeah , I've not had any complete beginners at the moment . Yeah , it tends to be like a conversation . I run a half marathon in such a time and now I've got Manchester marathon coming up in three months , would you be able to help and work with me ? And yeah , so it tends to be along those lines , really , or along the lines I've been running for five years and I've hit a plateau and I'd like to reach the next stage , if that's possible . It tends to be , that Great that's fantastic .

Speaker 1 4:15

What do you think are sort of the common mistakes that sort of beginners sort of make ?

Speaker 2 4:23

Yeah , there's a few that come up quite regularly . Actually a common phrase that I use I don't know if other cultures use it , but I call it too many middling miles which is broadly running the same pace all the time , or roughly the same pace all the time , whereas what you wanna be doing is I don't know if you've heard , of it the 80-20 rule .

Speaker 1 4:45

I have heard of it . Yeah , yeah .

Speaker 2 4:47

I mean it doesn't have to be the exact numbers , but as a broad kind of structure or an idea to instill in someone it's probably quite close to where you wanna be . You wanna be running generally easy for 80% of the time and then for 20% of the time that'll be taken up during your sessions and tailored running as set by the coach , hopefully so yeah . And by easy I mean when I tailor an easy run . You can't run it too slow . That's why I always try and instill with the runner .

Speaker 2 5:24

Effectively . It's a recovery run . It's recovering from the previous session and it's getting you ready for the next hard session . So , yeah , that's quite a key thing , Can ?

Speaker 1 5:34

I just ask you here is that basically , let's say , for instance , someone who's quick like you know , who may be sort of three hour or 30 marathon or something like that , and then they do , they can run at quite a fast pace or do intervals at a faster pace and do at a particular pace and do slower recovery runs or long runs at a certain pace .

Speaker 1 6:01

So there's kind of that broad range . Someone who's really slow , let's say me , let's say my best 5K is 6.5 , 6 minutes , 30 per kilometer , so it's like 30 minutes , whatever . So I mean I know it's kind of a bit off the top of my head , whatever . So if I was looking to , let's say , do recovery run , maybe longer runs like you know , 7 , 8k or something like that , so am I looking to do something like 7 minutes or 7.5 minutes or even walking pace , that kind of thing ? And I'm kind of putting you on the spot a little bit .

Speaker 2 6:43

Yeah , I mean certainly way , way slower than your 5K pace for sure yeah yeah , and slower than your . I don't know if you've done a marathon , have you ? No , no , no , I've never done one though , but certainly slower than your notional marathon pace . Right so yeah , 100% would need to be doing that . Yeah , and that is the way to progression , really Really , yeah .

Speaker 1 7:06

And is that a skill ? From what you're saying , is that a skill as much of a skill , you know , as doing the interval sessions and running , you know , maybe six times 400 at a 5K pace or whatever you know . It's just as much as a skill to run at that recovery , slow recovery pace because , you know it , sometimes people can go .

Speaker 2 7:28

I can run faster than this . It's just an integral part of training as the sessions yeah for sure . And you can't have one without the other really . I wouldn't have thought it was a proper training plan . A good example is I remember seeing an interview with a Kenyan elite lady who I think her marathon PB was under 220 , I think so at the time like world level Right .

Speaker 2 7:52

She said her easy runs . So her marathon pace was well below 520 a mile and she said her easy runs were anywhere between eight and nine minutes a mile .

Speaker 1 8:04

Wow , okay , so you think that made that someone who is admittedly it's at high altitude . Yeah .

Speaker 2 8:10

Doing her easy runs , but still that is some stretch of pace between the two . Yeah , so I didn't do her any arms so yeah , but I think it's common . I don't think most people would realize how easy real top elite runners run most of the time .

Speaker 1 8:28

For sure , I know when I was doing quite a bit of running this is probably 20 , 23 years ago and I know what helped me was I was doing a lot of heart rate training and trying to keep it within a particular heart rate zone . And that really helped me .

Speaker 2 8:43

Yeah .

Speaker 1 8:43

Because I just felt I had a lot in reserve .

Speaker 2 8:46

Yeah , I did the same when I'm out for an easy run . I will try and keep . I mean , everyone's heart rate is different . Different zones , but for me personally , my easy kind of zone , zone two or high zone one certainly zone two would be 130 to 140 . And if I get above 140 , I will look at my watch and I think , oh , just need to bring this back a little bit , it's not really an easy effort .

Speaker 2 9:12

So yeah , yeah . So the heart rate monitor can be very helpful in terms of easy running as much as it can .

Speaker 1 9:18

Yes .

Speaker 2 9:19

Be to get it up to zone three and four .

Speaker 1 9:20

Yeah , because I used to have the polar ones and I used to sort of beat pet me prefer , but it did help me maintain that easy pace , whereas I think it's really tempting , you know , even if I mean I know you can get watches which can set your cadence or your your kilometer pace . But I just found that I just remember thinking you know it's , you know I've done a good long , easy run .

Speaker 2 9:52

Yeah .

Speaker 1 9:52

And I just felt I just had a lot of reserve . Yeah , and that's exactly what you're looking for , isn't it ?

Speaker 2 9:57

Yeah , and sometimes after when your legs feel tired and your muscles are aching , actually getting out for a short , very easy run , you can come back and you actually feel better because you're like moving your muscles and stretching yourself a little bit .

Speaker 1 10:10

Yeah .

Speaker 2 10:11

So and releasing a bit of tension . So , yeah , yeah , I do wear a heart rate strap , and the problem with the wrist based heart rate on your watches is I don't know if you've got one , but they tend not to be as accurate .

Speaker 1 10:25

Yeah , I've heard that yeah .

Speaker 2 10:27

Particularly at high pace sessions . They just lose their accuracy a lot .

Speaker 1 10:30

So the technology's not there yet , yeah , and also I think when you start the run , the it's like your heart rate spikes . Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , there's a bit of a lag .

Speaker 2 10:43

But . But the chest heart rate monitors are really accurate . Yeah , and you can really tell that when you do an interval sessions , because you can see a , a nice graph . It's nice and smooth up and down where it takes in the rest , and your heart rate drops and , yeah , that's a good sign .

Speaker 1 10:57

That's a good sign . Well , maybe we could talk about heart rate . Maybe a latest . Yeah , another time because I know that's a totally different subject .

Speaker 2 11:03

I think we could do a hung podcast .

Speaker 1 11:06

So so you talked about that . You know there are sort of common areas that people sort of tend to go a little bit too fast . They don't do the 80 , 20 wars . Are there any other areas that you feel ?

Speaker 2 11:20

I mean I briefly touched on it earlier but jumping straight into the marathon is is a high risk strategy really . I do encourage people to build up their races . Maybe look at a 10K first and then natural progression onto a half marathon and then maybe think about a marathon . But jumping straight into you know , going from next and now running to having a marathon in three , four months time is quite high risk and it's a heavy load on the body . Yeah , and your body does need time to adapt and build and build your strength into the marathon because it's it's an incredibly catabolic experience on the body .

Speaker 1 11:57

It's like a total breakdown . Yeah , yeah , exactly . I think it's a man made event , isn't it ? Yeah , so yeah .

Speaker 2 12:06

Is that sort of like perfect distance where you know , without fuel which a lot of people would do , including me on the first marathon you know you will hit the wall inevitably at 20 odd miles . Yeah and you still got six miles to go , which is not a nice thought .

Speaker 1 12:24

Okay , so that's a couple of things to talk about , but basically the moving on .

Nutrition and Training for a Race

Speaker 1 12:30

What advice would you give to people in terms of nutrition wise , leading up to A particular race doesn't have to be a marathon , could be a 10k , because probably that that week is made there , maybe sort of tapering . Hmm , yeah meaning that they're not doing as much running . Hmm but is there any advice you give ?

Speaker 2 12:51

in terms , of you know , general nutrition you know while they're training or even prior . I would tend to keep . As long as your diet is good and healthy , I would keep the diet the same in terms of content and slight nutritional value . You don't want to be thinking , oh , I'm tapering now I need to eat less calories . I think that's the wrong way to go . You need to keep your body sustained . Going into that last week , yeah . I think . Personally I think carb loading is a little bit over preached .

Speaker 1 13:23

Is it outdated ?

Speaker 2 13:25

Yeah , possibly I think you need to take on extra carbs , but I think you will be rested during that week , so your natural store of carbohydrates will be good anyway . So I wouldn't obsess about eating six bowls of pasta the night before a marathon . That's probably too risky .

Speaker 1 13:42

Yeah .

Speaker 2 13:43

I used to interestingly , I used to carb deplete on the Monday , tuesday , wednesday of my marathon week , which meant literally zero carbohydrates , and then I would load quite extensively . So what was the benefit of that ? The idea that you become so depleted that on the so then on the Thursday , friday , saturday , when you load properly , that your body takes on that little bit extra carbohydrate .

Speaker 2 14:12

But I mean it was a theory at the time and it's kind of gone out the window a little bit . Now it's not in vogue , but it was so punishing on the body that I find a week that yeah it's not something I want to go back to . As you get to the Wednesday and your heart rate is elevated . You're not sleeping properly .

Speaker 1 14:28

Oh right .

Speaker 2 14:29

Yeah , so going three days without carbohydrate is really punishing and I don't think you need that in your marathon week .

Speaker 1 14:36

Right , yeah , okay .

Speaker 2 14:38

So , yeah , just eat sensibly . Don't think about cutting back . Maybe increase your carbohydrate .

Speaker 1 14:45

Because you need the calories for the training Exactly If you're doing a marathon or half marathon or whatever . Yeah , yeah , maybe have an extra jacket potato the day before or something like that , but nothing substantial Talking about the moving on to sort of your training and when you're taking someone on , do you find that people have maybe preconceived ideas about what they should be doing training wise , or do you maybe have ?

Speaker 1 15:16

some people who don't really know or need some guidance about training , Because at the moment there may be someone who just goes out for the run and then maybe increases the distance , but there's no science behind it , there's no interval training or hill running . How do you basically what I'm trying to say is that how do you educate someone to include all these different little elements to help improve their running ?

Speaker 2 15:46

Well , I write a training plan and I'll put notes below each session . I'll try to explain it , certainly initially within a coaching relationship , what the purpose is of each session and I'll try and each email I'll provide a holistic view of how the training is going over a three to four month block and whether we're in the initial foundation endurance stage or when we start to slowly transition into event specific training . But yeah , I generally find that all my clients are very receptive to my ideas .

Speaker 2 16:24

And they're quite happy to have it presented in front of them and having the accountability of a coach there and trusting the process really .

Speaker 1 16:32

So , because I hear this a lot foundation training . So what's foundation training ? So what would that entail ?

Speaker 2 16:37

So , for instance , the marathon if you had a 14 to 16 week block ideally sometimes it's a lot , tends to be a lot lower than that , but ideally you'd want that sort of length of block . So then for the first eight weeks you could just build on strength and build your aerobic capacity , getting some hill works , build your leg strength , and then it's not like a flick of a switch . Then you go into event training . It's like a slow transition and then you might start seeing more marathon paced intervals and mile intervals within a long run , because you would hope in a training block that your marathon pace will feel a lot different 60% into a marathon block than it would do if from day one . Doing marathon pace work would probably feel quite tough in the first couple of weeks yes , if a coach prescribed that and that could be a bit demoralising . It's amazing what the body can adapt to over time and hopefully you get to the marathon event and two to three weeks before you can do a long run and mix in 10 to 15 miles at marathon pace .

Speaker 1 17:48

Oh right , ok , OK , ok .

Speaker 2 17:50

So so let's say , and obviously you build up the long runs , you probably wouldn't get to more than 16 miles . I mean , every athlete's different so it's very hard to generalise .

Speaker 1 18:03

Yeah .

Speaker 2 18:04

Yeah , you don't get into that long run territory ie 15 , 16 miles plus until you've got a good five to six weeks solid training .

Speaker 1 18:14

Right , yeah , with no injuries . Yes , yeah , exactly . Yeah , yeah , that's right . So they've done that foundation , and so is what would be after that in terms of next , next , next , next period .

Speaker 2 18:28

So you generally mix in obviously harder sessions , but cutting back on the longer runs or maybe keep that in . Oh , no , well , the longer runs will just get longer throughout the clock .

Speaker 1 18:42

Yeah , ok .

Speaker 2 18:43

I mean there's infinite ways that you can play with a long run . You can sometimes I'll mix in like a marathon pace mile every fifth mile or every third mile , depending how hard I want it to be . Yeah , or say , at the end of a long run , I want you to run three or four miles at marathon pace , which will be quite tough generally .

Interval Training Techniques for Marathons

Speaker 2 19:03

Yeah , the interval sessions would broadly get longer on some weeks , so you might be doing , instead of like 5k , 10k intervals , you probably took more towards half marathon intervals .

Speaker 1 19:17

Right .

Speaker 2 19:18

So something like three times 10 minutes at half marathon pace , for instance . Right , yeah , okay , another good one is alternate miles , so you might have something like a 10 mile run , and so one mile at half marathon pace and then the next mile at slightly above marathon pace , and so on .

Speaker 1 19:39

Hmm .

Speaker 2 19:39

Pretty tough run , but the idea being that you teach your body to just recover slightly at your marathon pace . Is this what they call float , or is it floats ? Yeah , alternate miles floats .

Speaker 1 19:52

Yeah , okay , not really a float , but you know , because marathon pace is still quite hard .

Speaker 2 19:56

Yes , so when you're teaching your body to just recover slightly or feel slightly more easier at marathon pace or just above , then yeah , that's quite a good winning formula .

Speaker 1 20:08

It's not a session I'd give every week . Yeah , this might seem a silly question , but basically the ultimate goal is is that if you have a marathon because obviously everyone's marathon pace is going to be different- so you know yeah , and you're basically teaching your body to sustain a pre-determined marathon pace to complete . You know that longer distance to complete it sort of thing yeah .