Speaker 1: 0:00

So you're thinking about running, but not sure how to take the first step. My name is Brian Patterson and I'm here to help. Welcome to Brian's Rompod. Well, hey there, runners and fitness fanatics, Welcome back to Brian's RunPod, where we bring you the best in running tips, stories and interviews with the experts. And I'm your host, Brian Patterson.

Speaker 1: 0:37

And today we have got a very special guest who's not just a doctor, but a triathlon powerhouse. Special guest who's not just a doctor, but a triathlon powerhouse. Joining us is Dr Geoffrey Sankoff, a Brian's Rompod First and emergency physician who's crossed the finish line at multiple Ironman races. That's right, folks, he's the real deal. Geoff owns TriDoc Coaching and is a coach with LifeSport Coaching and helping athletes reach their performance goals. Living in the beautiful city of Denver with his wife and three kids, Geoff balances family life, a demanding career and his passion for triathlons. And if that wasn't enough, he's also the producer of the TriDoc podcast, which I strongly recommend. So if you are looking to transition into triathlon, then you've come to the right place. So welcome, Dr Sankoff. Or shall I call you Jeffrey?

Speaker 2: 1:27

Oh, please, Jeffrey. Jeffrey is fine. Thanks for the welcome. It's a pleasure to be here.

Speaker 1: 1:32

Anyway, I just want to say I really apologize about all the technical glitches that we've had, but anyway, finally we've managed to get things sorted and thank you very much for agreeing to come on the podcast. Right, absolutely no problem at all, as I said, technical glitches are sometimes beyond our individual control. Like I do with many of my guests is I talk about your experiences of exercise. Growing up, were you, you know? Did you have a natural ability, or was it something that you kind of struggled with at school?

Speaker 2: 2:08

I was always very much into sports, but I was never a natural athlete by any means. I played ice hockey growing up.

Speaker 2: 2:15

Being a Canadian, growing up in Montreal, hockey was really the religion, and so I dreamt, like all boys, to one day lift the Stanley cup above my head learn very quickly that, yeah, exactly, learning very quickly that that was not going to be the case, but I did play hockey for many, many years and it was a passion. You know, I was in my 30s when I kind of realized that I needed to do something different, because hockey was going to have a finite kind of time for me, although a lot of people do play hockey for most of their lives. I had some hip problems and I couldn't keep going with hockey and I ended up finding something else, and that something else turned out to be endurance sport, which, with a lot of hard work, I've actually turned out to be okay Because, just going on that hockey theme, it is like a religion in Canada, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 3:14

Oh, very much. So yeah, I mean especially in Quebec, where the Montreal Canadiens have this storied history, and that was the city I grew up in and I can remember the first time I went to see them play and I have very, many, many cherished memories as a child watching them on Saturday nights on Hockey Night in Canada.

Speaker 1: 3:37

So was that sort of later on in your teens that you started sort of oh you know, there are other sports out there and you know there are other sports out there and you know, no, I actually.

Speaker 2: 3:55

So I pretty much only played hockey until my thirties and I went through medical school and residency and my fellowship training, continuing to play hockey.

Speaker 2: 4:00

And what actually got me to other sports was this when I, when I was finishing in the year 2000, I was finally coming to the end of all my training and I was very much overweight and out of shape, years of just working 80 to 100 hours a week and not eating well and not being able to exercise much had sort of taken their toll, sort of taken their toll. And so I found myself very much overweight, out of shape and still wanting to play hockey and I needed to do something to get back into shape. And I started doing a lot of weightlifting and I started running and biking, and just for not great lengths of time, really, only about 30 to 45 minutes a day. And then a colleague of mine asked me what I was doing to get in shape and I mentioned that I was running and biking and she said oh well, then you should do a triathlon. And I laughed, I said no, no, I'm not going to do that. But one thing led to the other and 20 something years later, here I am.

Speaker 1: 4:57

Were you a natural swimmer at the time, or is it? Did you?

Speaker 2: 5:05

I didn't even know how to swim. I mean I could, I wouldn't drown. I wouldn't drown if you threw me in the water, but I, I, I was not able to swim 25 meters. I I had to hire a coach to literally teach me how to swim and it took me a very long time. It took me a year before I could swim the 1500 meters needed to do my first olympicathlon.

Speaker 1: 5:23

I mean moving on from that, it's basically for I mean predominantly my audiences are runners and, like me, or then maybe they may be looking to transition to the triathlon. So explain in basic terms as to what is the triathlon.

Speaker 2: 5:42

Sure Well, a triathlon is basically any event that comprises swim, bike and run, and there are variations on the theme. You can sometimes mix up the order of the different sports. Sometimes there are different kinds of triathlons that put together things like you can have winter triathlons, for example, where instead of a run you have a cross-country ski, instead of a swim you'll have snowshoeing or something like that. But generally a triathlon is three sports. A traditional triathlon is swim, bike and run. The difference really comes down to the distances.

Speaker 2: 6:20

So there are classic kind of triathlon distances. The shortest one is a sprint distance, which is usually a 750 meter swim, a 21 or 20 kilometer bike and then a five kilometer run. That's a sprint distance. An Olympic distance or the international distance is a 1500 meter swim, a 40K bike and a 10K run. And then you start getting into more of the longer distance. The 70.3 or half Ironman distance is a 1900 meter swim, a half marathon 21.1 kilometer run excuse me, a 50, sorry, a 90 kilometer bike, and then a half marathon 21.1 kilometer run, and then the full Ironman is double that. So 3,800 meters in the water, 180 kilometers on the bike and then the full marathon, 42.2. And there are variations on those sort of traditional classic distances. There are super sprints, which are even shorter, and then there's ultra Ironmans, where you have all kinds of different distances that people have layered on, but the ones that I have outlined are sort of the more popular distances that you'll so when they I mean was it?

Speaker 1: 7:31

is it? It started in california, is that right?

Speaker 2: 7:34

or yeah. Yeah, that's right, it started in san diego. The mission beach triathlon was the first one and it began in the mid to late 70s and it was just one of these things that they had a little club there. They wanted to do something fun and they thought it would be fun to swim, bike and run. And people thought they were crazy, but more and more people did it, more and more people enjoyed it and eventually, in 1978, john Collins, who was a former Navy I don't think he was a SEAL, I just think he was just a Navy officer of some type he was sitting with a bunch of friends in Hawaii and they were having an argument over what defined the best athlete.

Speaker 2: 8:18

Was it somebody who could complete the Honolulu, the Waikiki Beach, rough water swim, which happened to be 2.4 miles? Was it somebody who could do the around Oahu bike race, which happened to be 112 miles? Or was it the person who won the Honolulu marathon? And they decided on the spot? Well, we're going to do all three and we'll figure out who the best person is, because that person is clearly going to define themselves as an Ironman.

Speaker 1: 8:47

And the rest is history. So the Ironman started first and then they kind of, because I think it was, was it? The 2000 Olympics was the first one, for the actual event was introduced since the Olympics.

Speaker 2: 9:02

Yeah, that's correct. 2000 in Sydney was the first time that triathlon was since the Olympics. Yeah, yeah, that's correct. 2000 in Sydney was the first time that triathlon was in the Olympics and its story is it kind of branches along different sort of routes, like the Ironman is what a lot of people think of as the triathlon, but it's really not. The Mission Bay triathlon that started things off was a much shorter distance, it was more of a sprint type distance and I'm not sure what the history is of how the international distance was settled upon, but eventually the international distance was taken up by all of the different federations and decided to be the Olympic distance and that was what was introduced to the Olympics, and so that's what we have done at the Olympics every four years.

Speaker 1: 9:48

So now you've, let's say, one has started to, let's say, commit and they wanted to do triathlon. I always found that I mean I did a very small triathlon in the past that the swimming was kind of the biggest obstacle, because you know we can bike and we can run and although getting the endurance like yourself when you started out to to go to swimming, to do the swimming event, takes a little bit more training for someone who isn't you know who's just been running or they've been cycling.

Speaker 1: 10:27

I mean, what advice would you give to someone who is starting out?

Speaker 2: 10:31

Yeah, it's the one that kind of keeps people from doing it, because they either don't consider themselves strong swimmers or they don't like the idea of the open water swim, which is intimidating to a lot of people. One there are a lot of triathlons where the swim is done in a pool, so you can easily get to do a triathlon and have the swim take place in a swimming pool, which makes the fear of the open water swim kind of not relevant. The other thing is, not everybody's going to be like me, coming from really not knowing how to swim at all. Most people have some ability to swim and, as long as you have something, that's a starting point, and so the most important thing to do is really to find a community and to find someone who can help you. Having a coach is a great thing, but having somebody local to you as well who can look at your stroke and give you pointers, Because, unlike biking or running, swimming is so technique heavy.

Speaker 2: 11:36

If you're not doing something right in the water, it's going to make it very difficult to move forward, and getting those little things fixed can make a big difference. The learning curve on swimming is much steeper than it is for running and biking, no question. But if you're motivated and it's something that interests you, just think about you know, sprint triathlon, 750 meters, that doesn't take most people that long.

Speaker 1: 12:00

Even poor swimmers can do a breaststroke for 750 meters and be done in a reasonable amount of time I know, I know when I had some coaching for swimming and I don't know if this is a fault for people who do a lot of running is that we have very stiff ankles, whereas ankle flexibility in terms of the kick is quite key to get a good kick. What would you recommend to help overcome that?

Speaker 2: 12:31

Oh, there's no question. It's interesting Cyclists have terrible hip flexibility and then runners have terrible ankle flexibility, so triathletes have it at both ends we have terrible hip and ankle flexibility. You know you could always be doing things to work on your ankle flexibility. But here's the secret onset swimmers people who kind of learn to swim as an adult make is they think that the kick is important and that the kick is going to make them go forward, and so they end up wasting a ton of energy on the kick. And the reality is is that the most important thing for swimming is getting good body position. And if you can get a good body position, you almost don't even have to kick, because the people who generate a ton of velocity with their kick are the people who've been swimming their whole lives the Olympic swimmers, the high school swimmers, the people who've swam for decades. Those are the people who have a really good kick.

Speaker 2: 13:25

The rest of us, we're not really doing that much with our kick.

Speaker 2: 13:29

We're using our kick to keep us in a good place in the water, we're using our kick to make sure our legs don't sink too much, but we're not really generating that much thrust. And so for that reason I always tell people don't focus so much on kicking so hard. Instead, focus more on keeping your body position correct, and that means keeping your head low in the water. Your hips will come up, your legs will be more at the surface, you won't have to kick to keep them there, and then you don't have to kick nearly as frequently. And when swimmers are able to master that, they find that they're able to swim with much less energy usage. They're not nearly as out of breath, not nearly as fatigued, and they actually enjoy swimming a lot more. Now, it takes a while to get to that point, but it's worth working towards, because once you get there, it's a revelation. You don't have to kick nearly as hard as you think you do, and loosening up those ankles becomes less of a major pressing point.

Speaker 1: 14:25

And also, at the end of the day, you want to save your legs for the next two disciplines, which are the bike and the run, that's correct, yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:36

disciplines, which are the which are the bikes correct? That's correct, yeah. And I mean I tell people all the time it's like you know, if you don't have to kick as much in the water, then those legs are much fresher for the bike in the run, where you're really going to have to use them. You can't use your arms for for biking and running, but you can use your arms in the swim and you don't have to use your legs nearly as much on this one.

Speaker 1: 14:53

So would you even say not even think about a two-beat kick, just use making….

Speaker 2: 15:03

No, a two-beat kick is what you want to be striving for, but a lot of people are kicking a four-beat or even a six-beat kick because they're struggling, and so they end up over-kicking. That's a very common mistake with new sports.

Speaker 1: 15:15

In terms of where do, let's say, newbies or potential runners, I suppose, get it wrong in terms of the technique with their arms? Is it because I know, like you said, it's a very technical part of the sport. You know there's various words like catch and keeping the elbow high, and that kind of thing, would you say, are the kind of the areas that people get wrong initially.

Speaker 2: 15:43

Yeah, the most common mistake that people make is they keep a straight arm when they're swimming and so they're trying to almost like reach the bottom of the pool and scrape the bottom of the pool with their fingernails. And learning how to swim with a high elbow is another thing. That takes a little while, but it's not that hard. It's just a matter of understanding what you're trying to do and then watching video or having people show you. The catch is sort of the higher level order of what's kind of like more advanced swimmers work on, but the for for newer swimmers it's that getting that elbow high, that's really the big one so, in terms of building up that endurance, how would you, what would you advise in building that endurance?

Speaker 1: 16:29

because I, I know well, you just said that, you know and I know when started out it was like it was only a few strokes and I was getting out of breath and you know water coming in, this sort of thing. How would you, what would you advise in, you know, building that insurance?

Speaker 2: 16:46

Well, there's a couple of things, I think. First and foremost, people who come to swimming and have not been swimming for a long time, I tell everybody, spend the first almost two, three months even not working on trying to go fast, not working on trying to go far, but instead just working on trying to develop your stroke, do a lot of drills, do a lot of slow swimming just to be comfortable in the water, just get the stroke tidied up as best you can. And there are tons of different drills you can do. There are tons of different ways that you can make that happen, to try and fix your body position in the water. You want to try and develop this muscle memory. You want to try and develop all of these different kinds of things that should become habits so that when you do start swimming with more speed and over more time, that those things are not things you think about, you just do them. So spending that first couple of months is really critical to just developing good swimming habits, getting that stroke dialed in as best as possible. Then the next step is really just to start adding on the duration that you swim.

Speaker 2: 17:55

And I usually, you know, I a lot of people go out and just, oh, I'm just going to bang out 500 today and that's going to be my swim effort. And while that does have some value, it doesn't have nearly as much value as doing a structured swim set. I mean, you don't see any Olympic swimmers go to the pool and just swim 2000 meters straight and get out and go home. They go in and they are doing 50s and 100s and 200s and 400s. They vary up the distance of the sets that they do because when they do that they also vary the intensity with which they swim them. And changing that intensity depending on how far you're swimming in each set is really important to becoming a stronger swimmer and important to developing these kinds of skills for being able to swim for longer.

Speaker 2: 18:42

So having structured workouts for you on your swims is really important, dedicating probably 45 minutes to an hour in the pool each time. And how far you swim will progress over time. Initially it might be short, but right now, like I, can swim over 3,000 meters in about an hour. But a lot of people will only be able to swim about 1,000 when they start. But as they get better, as they create more endurance, as they are able to swim with more speed, that number will creep up and it's just a matter of sticking with it and being patient. And swimming, for me, was something I didn't love for a very long time, and now it's something that I truly enjoy, and I look forward to.

Speaker 1: 19:21

I mean in terms of that, so in terms of improving that endurance. You just say you would say it's just breaking it down, so maybe just doing like maybe 50s six times 50s.

Speaker 2: 19:35

Yeah, it's really important to do that. Oh, it's really important to do that. Like six by 50 with short rest, is almost honestly, it's just as valuable as swimming 300. Because if you get someone to go swim 300 and they really don't have the endurance to do it, their stroke breaks down and so by the time they've swam 150, they're swimming much less efficiently, they're feeling out of breath and tired and it becomes less worthwhile, whereas if you tell them to swim six times 50, with five or 10 seconds rest, or maybe 15 seconds, whatever they need to catch their breath, they start each interval with their stroke being much more efficient, much more dialed in and therefore they're getting 300 meters where their stroke is more correct, and that is a better overall use of their 300 meters, and also you're able to get into that rhythm of breathing, which is just as important.

Speaker 2: 20:34

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 20:37

Okay, there's some good tips there. Moving on to cycling, some would say well, it's the most natural thing in the world. You know, I get on my bike and I start cycling. What, what? What do you think the challenges are are for people who are looking to get into the sport, and from the cycling side.

Speaker 2: 20:52

The number one challenge for people looking to get in a triathlon is overcoming the urge to spend, because, especially when it comes to a bicycle, it's almost limitless and bicycles can become very expensive very quickly, and so, especially when you start looking at triathlon dedicated bikes, which are very different from road bikes, your head can spin very quickly and you can be overwhelmed by how expensive these things can be. And so I always tell people, especially if you're new to this, especially if you're just considering this, do not buy a bike for triathlon. Buy a bike that you are going to use, that you are going to enjoy, that you are going to get years of use out of and then use it in a triathlon. So, depending on what bike that is, that bike can look like many different things.

Speaker 2: 21:42

I've seen people show up to their first triathlon with fat bikes. I've seen them show up with mountain bikes. I've seen them show up with all kinds. It just can't be an e-bike. That's the only thing it can be, but anything else is fair game. I've seen people show up with, like the cruiser bike, with a little basket on the front, it doesn't matter.

Speaker 2: 22:02

Yeah, it does not matter. Just the fact that you're there and doing it is what counts. So that's the first thing you have to resist. But once you're actually doing the biking, there is more to it than just pedaling. Becoming a good cyclist requires a few important kind of skills, not the least of which is just bike handling. If you don't ride a bike a lot, then you should be spending more time handling your bike learning how to brake, learning how to manage corners, learning how to climb hills, learning how to manage your gears because bikes these days come with a whole range of different possibilities for gears and knowing what gear you should be in under what kind of terrain is very important. Braking and keeping your head up and just understanding how your bike handles these are all things that you get as you ride your bike more and more and are extremely important to being successful as a cyclist. But then there are other things as well learning how to take a drink when you're on the bike, learning how to take in calories. That becomes an issue when you start doing longer races, because the bike is the place where you can actually take in energy and since most triathlons not the sprint. The sprints are short, but once you start talking about Olympic distance and longer, you really have to be taking in calories in order to be successful.

Speaker 2: 23:22

The place where you do that tends to be on the bike. So, learning how to drink, learning how to eat, learning how to pedal Anybody who's going to be, like me, watching the Tour de France this July will be more than aware of how the pros look when they're pedaling. As age groupers, we of course, don't look anything like them, but we do take a lot of the same kinds of lessons maintaining a high cadence, maintaining good body position on the bike to be as aerodynamic as possible, those kinds of things. So all of those things come into play as a cyclist. But as long as you know how to balance, know balance yourself on two wheels, that's enough to get started, yeah, and what's this thing about drafting?

Speaker 1: 24:03

I mean, I know, probably if you're starting out, then you're not going to be too worried about that. But if you were sort of like you know going, for or serious events. What's the what's the rules on one draw. So?

Speaker 2: 24:16

so triathlons an individual sport, and what that means is it is meant to be you against the clock, without any assistance from anyone else, and so there are a host of rules that are designed to make sure that when, from the moment you start until the moment you finish, you do not get assistance from any other competitors, from spectators or from anyone else who could potentially assist you in some way to make your time quicker, and one of the ways that is the most efficient to be faster is to draft on the bike, and drafting is something that exists in running, too.

Speaker 2: 24:54

If you've ever found yourself in a running race and you're running into a headwind, I think we all know that if you tuck behind another runner, even if that runner isn't necessarily bigger than you tucking behind another runner, you will immediately feel the benefit of decreased wind resistance.

Speaker 2: 25:09

That runner in front of you is cutting the wind for you and giving you a benefit where you are able to hold the same pace, pushing less amount of effort to do so. Well, on the bike, drafting is an even more significant benefit, and the closer you can get to the cyclist ahead of you, the more they are going to cut the wind and the easier it is to hold higher speeds with less effort, and for that reason, except in races where it is explicitly allowed, and they're like for the Olympics, for example the Olympics are draft legal, but Ironman racing and most triathlons have specific rules that outlaw drafting, and all it means is that when you're on the bike, you are expected to be doing the work for yourself, by yourself, and not getting any assistance from a draft, and that means you have to keep yourself out of the draft zone of the cyclist ahead of you. That draft zone varies from race to race, but for Ironman rules it's 12 meters, so it's a pretty good distance.