SPEAKER_01 0:00

So you're thinking about running, but not sure how to take the first step? My name is Brian Patterson, and I'm here to help. Welcome to Brian's RomPod. Welcome back to Brian's Rompod, and it's me, your host, Brian Paterson, on some more hints and tips about running. This week is the second part of my chat with Kay Allgood, a sports psychologist who resides in the US but grew up in Canada. I know in part one we talked about how, like most Canadians, ice hockey is the number one sport in Canada. Also, we chatted about how she played the game at a very high level. This week you dive deeper in how her skills as psychologist can help recreation runners. So without further ado, let's start the conversation. Is there anything, any advice you can give, let's say, for someone who is coming up to because a lot of people who are, I mean, you know, running has taken off in the last 25, 30 years, a lot more races, a lot more people doing ultramarathons, that kind of thing. And obviously, maybe there's there's nerves because they've been training for a while. Is there anything that you you're you can give any advice um about help helping to counteract those nerves?

SPEAKER_00 1:28

I think first and foremost is that nerves are very normal to normalize it, that to understand that nervousness is a it's a good thing. It means that you care about something. And the other part of the equation is why the nerves come up is because you care about it and it's unknown, it's uncertain. And so being able to acknowledge that you're nervous and to not interact with it is a is a big thing. So a lot of times people will start to interact with the nervousness, like, oh, I'm nervous. What does this mean? Does this mean I'm not ready? Does this mean I'm not prepared? Maybe I'm not gonna do well. So now when you're interacting with it, you're you're feeding it. So it's probably gonna grow or it's gonna become the predominant thing you're focused on, which that itself also is probably gonna make it feel bigger than it really is, or to help it grow. And so a big part of it is to is like acknowledge that it's there, acknowledge why it's there, and to have a I don't say good relationship with it, but to just know that that's a very normal thing. And I'd be almost worried if you weren't nervous before something that you've just trained all this time for.

SPEAKER_02 2:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

And instead start to think about, you know, the various things that you can do or want to focus on to help you execute the run. So start to get more into just focusing on the task at hand and what you can do to break it down. And we go over a lot of that with my clients from what we've already discussed, right? Creating your what I call action plans for anything maybe not going according to plan, because that could also help with the nerves, just knowing that I have my response plan if something should kind of go awry.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

And then also, you know, doing some breathing techniques, maybe just to manage that energy. Cause a big part of it is nerves are just energy. And when you see it as just energy, you still have to manage your energy. So it's not that nerves are bad. We could take excitement, for example. And if you got too excited before a race, that too may hurt your race. Right. So it's really just saying nerves are energy, and I need to know where does that energy, internal kind of energy need to be. And maybe we need to do some breathing techniques, some meditation, whatever might work for somebody to really help them just again, more about managing the energy versus I'm here to manage the nerves. The nerve just may be the the type of energy you're you're feeling in that moment. Um, I think that's really, really uh those those three things I think are, you know, really important when you're dealing with nerves. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

I mean, a couple of things just come to mind is that do you get people to write down, you know, when you are sort of, you know, prescribing or talking to them, do you get them to sort of write down um sort of the different action points?

SPEAKER_00 4:04

I do. Writing things down very, very powerful and very good to do. So I have everyone uh just say, and it's what I call an if-then statement. So say if X happens, then Y. And you do that for each one. And if you have a race, you do it for that race. I would keep it because a lot of them will be probably pretty the same for your next race. So you review it about three to four days before your next race. So you don't want to do it right before the race, but you do want to do it fairly close to it. You just don't want to do it the day of the race. So you do it a few days before the race, see if they still apply and remind yourself of your action plans. Because if you wrote one three months ago, you're not gonna remember for it this weekend if you haven't reviewed it. But then you also want to add any new that may be different for that situation. Like maybe if you're running in higher altitude or you know, it's gonna be raining that that for that race and it wasn't for your last race. So it gives you the opportunity to also now maybe add some new ones that weren't uh there for your last race.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

So the other thing that came to mind was that post-race. So I mean, we obviously talked about the pre-race nerves, that kind of thing. So post-race, two things would be success and failure. So I think there's a very famous saying, players entrance, you know, treat success and failure as an imposter of the same or something like that. So uh how you know would you see your client supposing, let's say, I've done a marathon, wanted to do it in three and a half hours, ended up doing at four hours, you know, totally blew up. Obviously, I'm having to deal with the uh psychologically, the failure of not, you know, I've done all this training and I didn't achieve it. Uh, are there any tools there by talking to someone like you that you could help me with?

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Yeah, I think first and foremost, is your relationship to what is what is failure is is not getting the exact time that you wanted to really truly failure, or is it feedback saying that some things need to be adjusted for your next attempt? Right. And that's a big thing is if you if you looked at someone who blew up, obviously something something they did not do um to help them be able to get closer to the time that they want. And that could have been a physical, could have been something in their training, could have been something in their nutrition, it could have been something between their two ears that has inhibited them from doing what they were physically fully capable of doing. So there's something there that you can look at to then say, okay, I need to look at this, get curious about what happened, and create a plan for how am I going to make this better for the next time. So curiosity, a curious mindset is really, really helpful after something that's tough. The other thing though, too, is it's okay to feel maybe the little bit of that disappointment or feel the sadness or whatever that feeling may be that you didn't get the time that you want. It's okay to have a, you know, that initial, I didn't, I don't like this. And now how do we after that now let's move into okay, let's be curious. We just don't want to get to that really critical place, right? That's the biggest thing I'm I'm gonna be looking at is not having someone not get really, really critical or really, really hard on themselves. It's okay to feel sad. It's okay to maybe grieve a little bit, it depending on if this race was something you were trying to do to maybe qualify for something else, right? It's okay to kind of feel those things, but we don't need them to uh go for too long. And we also don't want it to become, you know, really, really critical, like I suck or I can't do anything or things of that nature. Yeah. Yeah, to manifest or do something.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Yeah. So that's that's the biggest thing. But that curious mindset really is important. Self-reflection is is is big. And I have all of my clients for all of their training, all of their races, you know, everything that they do, they do self-reflection. So they're slowly building that mindset of how do I properly reflect on things, see things I did well, see things I need to learn from, and to try and make it so that when something doesn't go quite the way that they want it to, they have a little bit more of that mental resilience to be able to look at it from a different perspective so that they can then use it to now, you know, move forward and and really get back to work if they need to.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Yeah. Because I know you uh, and I've heard this uh, you know, with other people I've talked to, and there's something I've I've witnessed. But in terms of, let's say, this kind of growth mindset philosophy, it is part of that, isn't it? Because failure is part of it for you to grow in a way.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

Yeah, growth, a growth mindset is is really about knowing that your efforts are being put towards, yeah, your efforts are going to help you to grow.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:53

Um, I think there's also other mindsets that, you know, combine with the growth mindset where the mindset of understanding that, you know, you're looking to constantly improve is really an important thing, is to know that your job, no matter what happened, could to remove good or bad from the equation in terms of a label, right? You could still sit there and said, the fact is I I ran 30 minutes slower than I wanted to run. That's factual.

SPEAKER_02 9:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Whether you label that as good or bad, that's a perspective because some people will say that sometimes they did their, you know, the very best thing for them was to struggle in that one moment or that one situation. It helped them to put the other pieces together that maybe helped them to really succeed, quote unquote, down the road. So to remove that label of good or bad and to really say, how do I take this to improve? So whether you ran 30 minutes slow or you got it two minutes faster than you thought you would, it's just take the information and how do I become better uh next time? What do I take from it that I learned both what I think I can build off of in a good way and what are things I need to adjust?

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Right. So um, I mean, I said that the other thing would be, you know, I've I've succeeded, you know, I've I I was planning to do three hours, 30 minutes, and now I've done three hours, 15 minutes sort of thing. Wow, brilliant. I'm thinking, right, I don't need Kate anymore. But I I don't see that really being the case because um I think it's just as important to it's all part of that that journey that you've you've succeeded at that, but you can also maybe talk to someone else about of that success. Do you agree with that?

SPEAKER_00 10:42

Oh, I do very much agree. If someone in their mind was like, Oh, I don't need kid anymore, I was like, well, that right there means you do need kid. So Yeah. It's to succeed is a is a is a wonderful thing. But if you're really wanting to master your mind, it takes a long, long time. And the people who really are on that journey of mastery succeed or failure, to them, it's just another piece of feedback and another opportunity to keep on a on a trajectory if they if they did that well. And depending on what because sometimes that happens where a lot of stuff we've worked on really propel them forward quite fast. And then they're like, exactly what you said. Oh, I don't need this anymore because look at how amazing I've done.

SPEAKER_02 11:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

There's so many other things that start to come up afterwards from, you know, people will usually then stop doing everything that we just talked about that got them the results that they wanted. And then that's going to lead them back to where they were. So there's a lot of reasons why, you know, they may not need me as often.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

That's usually maybe something that that comes where we don't have to speak as often. But I think if you're really wanting to master, then you're always curious to to continue to expand.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

So did you have you worked with people who or recreation runners or even on the elite leak level? So um when they're going through injury, because obviously that can affect confidence when I get back to it. Will I be at that same level when I come come back from injury? Or even, you know, in some cases it can through depression or um put them off getting back into the sport. I mean, what techniques do you feel that we know we could we could work on in during that time of of injury? And sort of your feeling that you're you're not able to get back into the sport that you love?

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Yeah, there's a lot of different things and it depends on like what you said. Like, is this how big is this injury? Yeah, how long are they gonna be out for, or do they have to end their maybe running career? So those are different things that we obviously would look at in terms of what we need to process. First and foremost, which a lot of people don't know, is there is going to be grief, even if it's a short-term injury. Because if it if it derails the plan that you had, there's usually going to be some form of grief around that. And you do need to grieve. You need to grieve the loss of what you thought would be, even if it's this small thing or a bigger thing, like maybe you're not running anymore. So grief is really, really important. I think a lot of people don't do that, and then it kind of impacts them as we move through the process. Then from there, if you've grieved, I then you start to look at, okay, how do I utilize this time to become better? Because it does give you an opportunity. It gives you an opportunity to maybe work on things to focus on some things that when you are running, especially if you're, you know, the amount of hours runners have to spend running during the week, it doesn't leave a lot of time sometimes for other things. So I always say this gives a great opportunity to focus on training your mind if you are injured. And so I think things like meditation are great, uh, visualization. If you're not running, then you can still visualize and still do that component of it. You can still do some journaling, you can still do self-reflection, you can still set goals for your rehab.

SPEAKER_02 13:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

And I think that's usually a big thing too, is make sure that you are, you have a direction and a path for getting better.

SPEAKER_02 14:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Because that's one of the things athletes are used to. You get up, you have a direction, you know what you got to go do, you go do it, it's done. So you can still kind of create that structure a little bit when you have an injury and having to to rehab, uh, depending on where somebody is at in their in their life. If, you know, if they're working, that's a different thing. But I've had definitely some of my professional athletes where I say, well, you know, go study something, go read a book on on some topic that you're interested in. So just again, broadening their horizon away from their sport. So they're starting to, you know, look at just different things that, you know, and that encompass who they are versus I'm this one singular thing. Because that's also a big part when someone gets injured. If their identity is too highly tied to their sport, then that makes that injury even bigger in their mind versus if it's just one thing and yes, this is frustrating because I can't go do the very thing that I love to go do, you know, that's a different, a different thing. Finding other ways to process things in your life, because for a lot of athletes, their sport is the very thing that helps them deal with all the stuff outside of their sport. So now if you remove the running, you know, if someone uses running to deal with their stress in life, to, you know, to help them clear their mind, whatever it might be, and now that's gone. That's another part of injury, right? Where you've lost the very thing that helps you deal with all the other aspects of life. And and now you've got to find another way to to do that.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

And I think the other thing is is just to go a bit of a in a bit of context and background. I mean, I had an injury, I don't know, back in March, April. And I wasn't able to run. I found it quite e quite painful to walk. I had a sort of glutus medius injury, it was a tendon thing. But I think the important thing I've learned is to ask for help. Um, I know that's quite simple, but I found that going to a physio or a therapist and to have a program, that really helped because at least you felt that you had some kind of direction.

SPEAKER_00 16:07

Correct. Yeah, getting help, big thing. Go find somebody that can can help you and and you know, make sure you you find someone you trust, because that's a big part of it too. If you trust the person and you know that they they know what they're doing and the the path they're setting you on um is a good one, then it it does help. There's a it's there's a it's very um yeah, it just helps support that journey versus if you're not sure, second guessing, trying to do it on your own, it can make things a little bit harder.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

You a couple of things um well kind of briefly want to go into in our uh in our short time that we've got left. But you talked about visualization and also goal setting. Um, are there any good techniques that you can do for sort of visualization?

SPEAKER_00 16:56

I mean, visualization can encompass so many things, and uh, whether it's seeing part of your your actual run, seeing how you want to feel after your run, seeing how you want to maybe handle adversity. I think what what from my understanding, and this is the evolution of research, and so this may change again, and it may have already changed, is is even short little segments, like even 20 seconds is very, very beneficial, like just seeing a 20-second burst in your mind of a section of your run and then take a break. Almost like doing reps, like doing sprinting reps, like do 20 seconds, take a moment, do another 20 seconds, take a moment. And bringing in as much senses as you possibly can, that's always been a big thing with visualization. You want to really want to embody it, like feel the feelings, um, hear the sounds, see as much as you can. Saying that everyone is different. Some people have the ability to feel things more strongly or see things a little bit more clearly. So to not get frustrated if you're not, you know, seeing it like it's a movie playing in your mind, if it's a little bit different, if it's shadows, that's okay. Just doing it and continually building the skill is is a big thing.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

And in terms of goal setting, is there anything that you you can advise sort of recreational runners in terms of their goal setting?

SPEAKER_00 18:13

Yeah. So there's there's two things that I like to do and approach with my clients. Uh, and the first will help set up the the second. First, it goes into really understanding what are you trying to get out of your goal. So a lot of it that we're trying to get is based off of how we think something's going to make us feel. Like if you think about setting a time or a run for a race, you're setting that time a little bit because of how you think it will make you feel. Like you think it will make you feel accomplished or happy or satisfied or fulfilled, whatever it might be. If we didn't have that sense of feeling, it wouldn't probably matter as much to us. So a big thing, instead of making it where this thing that you have in the future that's big is the thing you're chasing to feel that way. Why don't you understand if I'm wanting to feel fulfilled or I'm wanting to feel, you know, in my mind focused or confident, can you not set up your daily goals to start to create that and cultivate that? So then that bigger thing down the road just kind of helps to align with it versus it's an it's a necessary thing. So it goes from this is what I want, or goes from this is what I need to this is what I want. Right. So a lot of the time we need to to win or we need that time to feel something. And then the other thing is to make it where you have three different layers of goals. So a lot of time when someone sets a goal, they're setting this, a goal is a target. That's really what a goal is. It's like it's setting a direction for you.

SPEAKER_02 19:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

And it's saying, this is where I want to go. So similar to if you got in your car and you wanted to go somewhere, you got to set a destination.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

And sometimes we hit that destination dead on. And sometimes maybe something comes our way and we kind of have to take some side roads and and we don't quite hit that, hit that destination. So I have with my clients setting three different layers. So they set a minimum, a target, and an outrageous goal. And so the minimum goal is really there to help build that confidence and that self-trust. Because if you're setting these, you know, minimum goals and and you should be accomplishing them quite consistently during, you know, each day, you should be setting minimum goals for your week.

SPEAKER_02 20:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Then you're building that confidence. You should also be setting target goals. So that's really the one you really truly are wanting to aim for. But if for some reason that day you don't hit the target goal, there's still that minimum goal. So you're still accomplishing.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

Okay. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

And then there's the outrageous goal, which allows you to be a little bit creative and really maybe push yourself and and and dream a little bit, right? To say, like, well, maybe I could today, like, instead of doing 15 minutes of meditation, I'm really, let's push it to 30 minutes. But that again, it's outrageous. But you never know, you might end up doing it. Yeah. But if you don't, it's it's not such a big deal. You still have the target and the and the minimum goal.

SPEAKER_01 20:59

Right. Okay. Okay. So that's something that is so you're you're breaking it just to summarize as you're breaking it down into three different types of goals, of which they are different. So you've got the minimum goal, which um which may be something on a daily basis, um, and then you've got the sort of the intermediate, intermediate goal or target goal, um uh which may be a particular time that you may be wanting to do, um, you know, like a particular training run or something like that. And then you've got the out uh uh sort of like the blue sky goal, as it were, which is kind of if everything falls into place, then I'm going to achieve that particular goal. Is that right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

Yeah, you know, you're yeah, you're very close to it. And you can do it, you can do it for your race. You can then you should be breaking that down to the Week and then to this day. So you can set minimum target outrageous goals even for just today.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

And then that should help lead to what you want to try to for the week, which should be leading to ultimately your bigger, your bigger goal. And you want goals to be very clear and very precise. You don't want to be vague or ambiguous. You want to know, like setting a very specific time is very clear. You know you did it or you know you didn't do it.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

Right. So in it's kind of like in summary, you are looking to achieve, it doesn't necessarily have to be on a daily basis, but you are looking to achieve one of those goals either at a specific time period. So it could either daily, then you could achieve that minimum goal today's Friday could be Monday or something. It could be that I go running on the Saturday and the Sunday. You know, that could be a minimum, uh a minimum, but obviously, you know, there isn't that the target goal is obviously something that's very separate. And then maybe the the um uh the third level of the goal might be that is, you know, either the race day or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

Yeah. So right, my gosh, 51 minutes already for because I could talk to you forever. So before we um I just want before I do sort of like a little bit of a quickfire, is there anything that talking to uh recreational runners, is there a general thing or theme that basically that basically recreational runners don't take into account? Or they either they're getting it wrong, or is there one thing which could help them in terms of a sports psychology point of view, could help them in terms of their reigning, their training, or their um helping with, let's say, with race preparation.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

It's a hard one. It's a harder one slightly different. Some people probably do some things and not other things. So is if there's a blanketed thing, I don't think there's a blanket.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

I mean, I'm just thinking from the goal point of view is that probably people don't do that, you know. I would have thought.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

Yeah, a lot of people won't uh break the goals down to in that layer, that I guess, uh level. Uh they pre-pl the action plan that I'd mentioned, right? Preparing for the what ifs.

SPEAKER_02 24:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

A lot of people will not do that. They they think about them and they let that turn around in their mind over and over again. But they never really sit down formally, write it out, and then write out the plan to address if that happened to occur. So, like very simple, what I said with my one runner that it happened, you know, just saying if it happens to be 20 degrees less than it was supposed to be, like if it happens to be freezing, here's what I'll do. Because I was preparing for it to be warm when I started to run. And that right there will just create a level of um ability to be more present as you're approaching a race and ability to be more present while you're there because now it's not a shock, it's not a surprise, and then you're not trying to think your way through it. Because that's another big thing. If you're open the door to trying to think your way through something, you're opening your door to now thinking about things. And when you're running, if you're thinking, you're not gonna get in the zone. So you want these things to just really help you to plug and play what you need to do. And I think that's if you're gonna say one thing that most runners do not do would probably be that is not really formally addressing and creating a plan for the what ifs they just think about it and then worry about it.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

Do you think with the, you know, we've got a lot of tech tech techniques, we've got a lot of tech um, you know, for runners, you know, running 30 years ago very different, uh, is a very different base now. Um, do you think runners are turning to these kind of like sports psychology because it's something that was within the elite space, they're turning to a bit more now to help them with the you know their running, even though they may be, you know, just like regular 5K, 10K uh or marathon, you know, runners. Do you think this is becoming more popular?

SPEAKER_00 26:15

Absolutely. I think it's it's becoming more popular in every level of of sports. And I think a big reasoning for is for some it's obviously outcome-oriented, but for a lot of people, it's really because of how they want to feel while they're doing the thing they're doing. So for in this instance, runners, they want to feel it like they want to enjoy what they're doing. They want to enjoy the running, they want to be in that flow state when they're running. I think you know, the what is it, runners high. That's what people are, I think a lot of the time wanting to get towards. So it's that ability to, yeah. It doesn't matter if you're recreational or or a high-level athlete. It's that feeling that you get and the feeling that you have while you're doing it, you're you're wanting to enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

Right. Okay. Um before we go, uh, I just got a few questions in terms of a quick fire round, if that's okay with you. Absolutely. Do you um and I think I might don't know if it might know the answer to this one, but do you have a favorite, uh, do you have a sporting icon?

SPEAKER_00 27:18

I do not actually.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

You don't?

SPEAKER_00 27:20

I don't.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

It it doesn't necessarily have to be a sport. It could be anyone.

SPEAKER_00 27:27

I don't actually.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

All right, okay. All right, I'll let that go. Um if there is there a go-to mental reset strategy for a bad run. Let's say if I had a bad run, is there a way of kind of like resetting myself?

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Are you during the run or after the run?

SPEAKER_01 27:45

After the run.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

After the run. I could be during, I suppose, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:50

I think the best best reset is just write out three things that you felt you did well and one thing you want to learn from that from that run, from that training session. Not and not just what you learned, but what you maybe need to do differently, then actually putting a plan in place to make that, to, to do something different. If you got to train differently for the next one, or you got to do something like it could be something really simple. Like if you didn't eat before your last training and it kind of impacted, it's just a lot of the time, again, we get so fixated on what we didn't like instead of saying, okay, what did we learn? Get it that curious mindset, what happened here? And how do I make that better for my next run? And then to actually think about what I will do, because now you're removing from thinking about the past to thinking about what I can control moving forward to make this better moving forward.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

I had some other questions, but I think you've pretty much answered them. But before we go, is that um how can we see more of your work? I understand you've um you've written some books. Uh, if you can give us like, you know, your Instagram and your website.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

Yeah, absolutely. So website by far best is to see all of my work, my one-on-one coaching. I do have an app. I have my books are on there as well. Yeah um all of my books are on Amazon.

unknown 29:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

If you're a beginner into this world, my first book, Get Into the Zone, is a great beginner. It's very small. It's a beginner's guide. If you're a little bit want a little bit more mediator dive in, my book, The Athlete Within, is probably a great option. Again, it's not huge, but it's it's mediator and goes into things a little bit more in-depth. My app, uh called the Athlete Within app, is you can go to my website and again and find it. And there's options to just do the app, or there's options to work with me kind of in conjunction with doing the app. So you get a little bit of guidance. It's not full-on one-on-one coaching, but there's a little bit of guidance there just to help maybe set a direction and help you as you're navigating that and give you ideas of which things you should be listening to, which which resources and support you should be using, uh, which worksheets, all of these different things that you should be doing. And I think that's a great thing just to help with the implementation of things. That's usually where a lot of people fall off, is they'll read and they have knowledge about things, but you got to be able to go implement it and put it into practice.

SPEAKER_02 30:10

Agreed.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

And that's definitely where the where the app kind of uh fits the both the knowledge but also implementation part of the needs.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:19

That's that's and my yeah, and my website is qpahlete.com. And then my Instagram, that's also my Instagram handle, which is qp athlete.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

Great. Okay. Honestly, it's been a fascinating subject, and I think you've given the audience um very much a lot to think about. And as I said, it's it's not just about you know taking in, but also, you know, implementing some of the tools. If anything, maybe just try one or two of these things and then just to see and to play with it, I suppose, uh some of these techniques. Absolutely. All right. If you could just sort of stick around afterwards until I have to say good um after we say goodbye. But I'd just like to say, Kate, um, thank you so much for coming onto my podcast. Um, it's been fascinating uh talking to you. And I'd like to say uh goodbye for me, Brian Patterson, and also like to say goodbye uh from Kate as well. Thank you very much. Bye bye.