Welcome And Why Consistency Matters

SPEAKER_01 0:00

So you're thinking about running, but not sure how to take the first step. My name is Brian Patterson, and I'm here to help. Welcome to Brian's ROM pod. All right, welcome back to Brian's ROM Pod, and it's me, Brian Patterson, your host, the podcast where we get into real stories and real struggles and the real wins behind running. Now, today's episode is one I think a lot of you are going to connect with because we're talking about something that comes up time and time again. How do you actually make running in the middle of a busy life? Because let's be honest, most of us aren't elite athletes. We're juggling work, family responsibilities, and somewhere in between. We're trying to lace up our shoes and just get out the door. And that's exactly where today's guest comes in. I'm joined by running coach Ken Graham, the man behind Running with Ken, who's built a reputation for helping everyday runners find consistency, enjoyment, and progress without feeling like running has taken over their entire life. Also, he is king of the post-it sticker. Throughout his coaching and his content, Ken's all about keeping things real. It's not about perfection. It's not about smashing every session. It's about building habits, staying consistent, and actually enjoying the progress. So in this episode, we're going to get into Ken's journey into running and coaching, what he sees run as getting wrong, especially when they're starting out, and how you can train Smile to stay motivated and keep running as something that adds to your life, not something that stresses you out. If you've ever struggled with consistency motivation or just figuring it out why you should actually be doing your training, this one's for you. So let's get into it and welcome to Ken. We've got an audience for you in the background here. So welcome to the to the podcast, Ken. And I'm usually start off with most of my guests. Um what was because I understand you're you're from Ireland, what how did you get introduced into the sport and were you a national athlete, natural athlete growing up in Ireland?

SPEAKER_00 2:27

Uh firstly, Brian, thank you very much for having me on the podcast. Um I was very excited when you reached out just to be able to come on and ramble a bit about running because as you've probably gathered already, I had the top ears off anyone listen when it comes to running. Um in terms of my own running journey, I guess I was never uh a runner per se. Um was never into like athletics or anything like that um in school. Um I played a bit of football when I was younger, um, and I would have I would have gymmed a lot as well. That's kind of where the bulk of my interest lay was kind of in gymming and resistance training and a bit of a gym bro and getting a lean physique. Um I think my first kind of memory of having like doing anything significant in the running space was probably a 10 kilometer run that I did in my mid-twenties.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

Oh right.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Um Yeah, so somebody in the college at the time look, there's this 10 kilometer race that's happening, and I said, Oh, that sounds great, sure, sign up. Um no training or no preparation or anything like that.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

As you can imagine, that 10 kilometer race didn't go uh very well. It wasn't very pleasant.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Oh right. Um So as at school were you uh kind of, I mean, was there kind of obviously there was a kind of a structured, you know, as part of your curriculum, there was PE and uh and uh obviously with you along with the education, but were you taken to, you know, uh exercise at school, or did you have any inspiration from school or anything like that?

SPEAKER_00 4:09

Just always loved health and fitness, yeah. But there was no real trigger, I guess, from school to send me down that direction. It was more kind of social media and I guess my circle at the time.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And did you um did you study sports science at at college or w was that it it it just didn't, you know, running or exercise didn't really enter into it when you were at college. It was about either having a good time and then like most of us, and um doing your finishing off your degree or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

No, as I said, like I always loved it and had always had a keen interest in it. And I did nutrition and health science at college.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Yeah, okay. And that was in that was in Ireland, yeah? Was that is that in Dublin or?

SPEAKER_00 4:58

In Cork.

Enjoyment As A Training Strategy

SPEAKER_01 4:59

In Cork. Oh right. Okay. Okay. So moving on to your sort of philosophy in running, what what do you think generally has been your your approach sort of thing?

SPEAKER_00 5:17

What I generally encourage to do first and foremost is just to find the enjoyment in it. Because if you enjoy it, you'll be consistent with it. Yeah. If you're consistent with it, you'll make progress.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

Right. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

So enjoyment is first and foremost.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

And do you think do you think it's where sometimes people get that wrong because either they feel that they kind of to stay, because there's that pressure to stay, uh sort of keep healthy that, you know, if I'm not doing the running or I'm not doing your two or three times a week or something like that, then, you know, I'm kind of going backwards with my health and fitness. Um, even though it's kind of like it has to be it's kind of a bit of a grind, as it were, to get through.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

Yeah, I mean, if you're kind of sticking to a structured training plan, like I agree, it's not all the easiest thing. I mean, running in itself isn't easy. It is you're exerting effort. So I I do really think it's an incredible form of exercise because it's very outdoorsy um as somebody want as much as somebody wants it to be. There's a great social element to it. You see that over here in Sydney there's run clubs left, right, and centre. Yeah. I'm outrunning myself, the amount of people that are outrunning, just chattering, having a matter, going for a coffee afterwards, you know, it's very social. Um so it's a very, I would say, easy way of kind of introducing exercise into your general life as well.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

Where do you think, I mean, how long have you been coaching or running coaching, as it were?

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Uh I've been coaching now coming up on two years.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Oh, okay. All right, okay. And what do you I suppose you've probably got a bit of an idea in terms of the landscape of other running coaches? So do you think you've kind of developed, I mean, looking on your social media and you've kind of developed a certain style. And is that something that you kind of consciously wanted to develop in terms of your of of your of your running style? I mean, like I said in your intro, is that you are the uh the king of the post-it note. And uh and I think that's great because of the best way of sort of like um communicating and to keep making it simple as as you put it, uh quote unquote. Is that is that something that you've kind of consciously developed?

SPEAKER_00 7:44

Yeah, look, I think the thing with social media is you're gonna have to give people what they want, which is the entertainment.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Giving them what they need, which is the education.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Um so that's kind of why I've gone in the direction I've gone with with social media, but I guess with the coaching, it's like it's not. I do like to keep things simple and help people to understand, you know, what a structure looks like, how to manage sessions, how to be disciplined with pacing, what the intention of each session is. So I do really like to educate runners in that regard.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

And keep things as simple and as easy to understand as possible.

SPEAKER_02 8:23

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

But I guess in terms of the actual coaching and how it all works, it's a a little bit different to what you might see on social media.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Oh, right. Okay. But did you I mean, was it something that you thought, I mean, I, you know, you you you kind of looked at what other people were doing, and then you thought, well, may I kind of make it a little bit more lighthearted to sort of like, you know, get across the message as it were.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

Yeah, and it kind of comes back again to enjoying it. Like I see that, you know, a lot of runners and a lot of coaches take things too seriously.

SPEAKER_02 8:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

And that can kind of take away from that kind of fun element of what running can be, and I think should be.

Social Media Noise And Injury Advice

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, on the um maybe we'll come back to this come back to this later. So on the sort of like social media side, because there's just so much out there. It's like, I mean, at the moment, um uh as I can it's as a running theme in uh this podcast, I I had a gluteus medius injury last year, and I seem to always bring it up every time. But then, you know, my um physio will show me certain exercises, and then you kind of put glutus medius injury on social media on Instagram, and then you come up with like 10,000 different ways of getting with that. Is that a kind of a bit of a mind field for those who are getting into running, um, you know, and and how do you navigate that um and not get caught up with all these different messages?

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Absolutely. And believe it or not, this I don't particularly enjoy social media.

SPEAKER_02 10:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

I know I can reach people by using it.

SPEAKER_02 10:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

Um, and the reason I don't enjoy it is for what you've just said. There's so much noise out there. It's just incredibly difficult and frustrating to know where to look, what to believe, what to use, what's practical and relevant to you with your current situation. Um, and you kind of get a little bit of paralysis by analysis of information that's out there. Yeah. Um so what I would encourage people to do is when they are having a scroll on social media or when they're searching for things on social media, is just try to see the wood from the threat from the trees.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

Just come back to you and your situation, where you are at, and ask yourself, is what I'm consuming right now relevant and applicable to me where I'm at?

SPEAKER_02 10:52

Yeah.

Using AI Without Getting Misled

SPEAKER_00 10:53

Um and do your due diligence as well. Like do your research, you know, ask the questions, try and think about things logically. Yeah, and again, it it just has to be practical and applicable to you. Yeah. And you just kind of need to kind of ascertain whether the information you're consuming is relevant or not. Can the same be said for AI as well?

SPEAKER_01 11:15

You know, like I suppose. Like, for instance, you know, people might put into chat GPT, you know, I've got so-and-so, or how to do a structured training plan or whatever sort of thing. Is that probably the best advice advice that you've given there? Is that, you know, again, just do your due diligence and sort of like, you know, research around it.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Exactly. Uh I love AI. It's it's a fantastic tool. Yeah. That's what it is. It's a tool. Yeah. It doesn't know you, it doesn't know what you're up to, it doesn't understand your life, your what's going on in your life, how you're feeling. Yeah. It just kind of tends to give generic advice and general information based on the masses. Right. Again, it's just about doing your due diligence and being careful about whether or not the information is applicable to you. But as I said, it's a fantastic tool, so use it. But use it, I would say try and be smart about how you use it.

What A Structured Plan Looks Like

SPEAKER_01 12:15

Yeah. Great. Okay. Um so okay, so let's say for instance, I'm very new to running, um, you know, and that's what should I mean when people talk about structured training plans and um we're sort of like kind of jumping ahead or going around a bit, but what what does that mean, sort of thing? You know, it's not just about me getting my shoes and then going out running, sort of thing, then maybe I just want to take it to that next level. And then, you know, I keep hearing about structured training plans. So what is that?

SPEAKER_00 12:52

We're talking if we're t if we're talking about a beginner, sometimes it is just about getting the shoes on and getting out the door and getting a feel for what running is and a little bit about it.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

But let's say a level up from that, if we're looking at a structured training plan, um typically how I work with my athletes is you know, again, it depends on the person, yeah. What their availability is, what their goals are, what their current fitness level is. But typically what you'd be looking at is kind of two quality sessions a week.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Um one of those is kind of like an interval or a tempo-based session, and one of them will be a longer form run. Right. Everything around that is just easy running.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

Right. Okay. So when you're talking about, let's say, a tempo run, what does that mean? Does that mean something like, or do I sort of say, right, okay, I run, let's say, for instance, I'm training for a supposing I'm training for a 10K fun run or something like that. Um, you know, I've got it in a couple of months time. Um so do I run that 10 do I run that 10, do I try and run a 10K and then break that down? Or do I sort of try to try and estimate as to what pace I should be doing that tempo run? Well, what what is the tempo run, I suppose what that's what I'm really asking?

SPEAKER_00 14:14

A tempo run, again, this is quite subjective depending on what you ask. But in general, it's something, let's say, a quicker than what your kind of jog pace might be for a sustained period of time. So you're working a little bit harder than usual.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

You're not kind of healed over or bent over after you're finished a run.

SPEAKER_02 14:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

It's kind of working comfortably hard. Yes. For for a sustained period of time.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

And is that a varying distance or do I do let's say, um, could the tempo run be like 400 meters or let's say a kilometer, and then I have a little break and then I do it again?

SPEAKER_00 14:57

Yeah, so what you're kind of speaking about there is an interval session.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

A tempo based run is factored into intervals because in intervals you're running at a quicker pace.

SPEAKER_02 15:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

Oh tempo.

SPEAKER_02 15:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

Um but generally in the running space when you hear tempo run, it might be like a 20 or a 30 minute run at I don't know, sixty-five percent of your max heart rate or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

Right. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Just a little bit quicker than what a jog might be. Um but then in the interval space, that's and again it depends on the goals, but that's generally something a little bit quicker. Let's say you might do five times three minutes with a two-minute jog recovery in between.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

And then those three minutes would be run at an effort of maybe 75 or 80% of your max heart rate.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

Something like that.

SPEAKER_02 15:48

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

Okay. And so what is the so given that, you know, I'm doing this tempo run and then I'm doing a a longer run, um, so w what are what's what's the benefit of the tempo run? What's that going to do for me?

SPEAKER_00 16:04

So generally with a tempo or an interval run, you'll be running a little bit quicker. Like it's kind of to develop your speed and fitness.

SPEAKER_02 16:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

And then the longer form run is kind of like for endurance. So it kind of ties all of the quicker stuff together and just helps you run quicker for a longer period of time.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

It's really the endurance-based stuff. That's what you're getting from the long run.

Running Form Myths And Glute Activation

SPEAKER_01 16:28

Right. Okay. Now I always um uh talk uh here about, again, you know, going back to the social media or even online, you know, generally, talking about um technique, you know, or uh um strides per minute, you know, there's this sort of magic 180 number, you know, which is I know is a bit of rubbish and or or not or something like that. But um I've heard that that sort of doing the interval session helps with your technique. Is that something that you agree with? Or is this um trying to get to that, you know, SPM figure, stries per minute figure, is that just something that's just maybe um at this level is kind of a bit is not really relevant.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

Yeah, and again, this is like the amount of information that's out there, and you shouldn't be doing this and you should be doing that.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

You have to look at the individual in front of you. Yeah. And that's first and foremost, that's the most important thing. Um what I would say is there is no perfect running form. People say you need to be a four-foot striker or uh seven foot striker. Yeah. Some of the best runners in the world are heel strikers. Mo Fara is a heel striker.

SPEAKER_02 17:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

So each individual will kind of adapt based on their own body to find the most efficient way of becoming a better, faster, more efficient runner um relative to themselves. Now, there obviously are things you can do to help them on that journey to kind of help with the quicker turnover of of their feet as it's kind of ground contact time.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

And the longer like your foot is in contact with the ground, the kind of slower you'll be and the more energy you'll have to exert to kind of push off.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Um, so you can you can introduce some technical sessions in the running to help with kind of runner's efficiency.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

Um a lot of beginner runners are hip flexor dominant as well, which means they kind of shuffle when they run.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

Oh right, okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

If you're getting kind of a shuffler to run quicker in interval sessions, you're just getting them to shuffle a bit quicker rather than them actually using their glutes to drive the running.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Oh right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

And there's things you can use in training to help them become more glute focused.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

That's primary muscle used in the running.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

So what what what would that look like?

SPEAKER_00 19:04

You can do things like strides, which is just getting a runner to run at something like 90% of their max speed for like 20 seconds, and then they might kind of walk or jog for 40 seconds to recover. And you might do a couple of different intervals of that.

SPEAKER_02 19:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Um it's it's not necessarily an all-out sprint.

SPEAKER_02 19:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

You're not kind of tripping over yourself, you're just kind of running at the maximum speed you kind of maintain control with when you're running.

SPEAKER_02 19:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

Um, and that just helps to kind of fire the glutes as well. So there's a few things you can kind of introduce just to get the brain talking to the bot a bit better.

Smarter Strength Work For Runners

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Yeah. I think I'm becoming very um aware about how the your bottom and your glutes is is just as very much uh and your hip flexors are very much part of the mechanics of of running sort of thing. Yeah. And um in terms of let's say, you know, if I've I've gone down this road and got this so-called, you know, uh 10K. Uh it just so happens I do have a 10K coming up in a couple of um couple of months. But um I just thought I'd use that as an example. Things like because it's it's not just about the running per se, but it's also about me being strong for for running. Um and do you think this is where runners uh get it wrong in that they don't include enough sort of like uh strength training as part of their regime?

SPEAKER_00 20:41

So there's a little bit of nuance around strength training. Right. With my with my athletes that I coach, I don't tend to give them kind of the traditional or conventional uh strength-based exercises to do. So things like your squats, your deadlift, things like that.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

The the strength and conditioning work that I prescribe to my runners is much more targeted to kind of muscles and joints and ligaments and tendons that are used specifically in the running.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

Um and the reason I don't give conventional exercises is because people's technique is generally poor. And what they do is they load up, they'll put a bar on their back, they'll load up the barber plates, and they'll be doing heavy squats. Right. But their technique is incorrect.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

And muscles and joints that shouldn't kind of primarily be used in that exercise, start to compensate for weaknesses elsewhere.

SPEAKER_02 21:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

Um, and that's when I see kind of the niggles and the injuries start creeping in.

SPEAKER_02 21:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

Um now again it depends on the person if somebody's kind of well versed in the gym and kind of have an idea of what they're doing, yeah. That's kind of a good place to introduce those exercises. But for most people, unless they get kind of their technology. Technique assessed. Generally, their technique just isn't correct and they do end up injured from loading up with weight and doing the movements incorrectly.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Yeah. Yeah. And also, people might go too heavy. I mean, I've heard that probably it's best to go lighter, do more reps, um, and just to make sure that you're doing the technique properly rather than you know going, let's say, I don't know, 70, 80% of your max or whatever, and then you know, going too too heavy, and then basically just technique just sort of falls apart.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

Yeah, exactly. And that's what I'd encourage anybody starting anything new, whether that's running or strength training or anything, always start off a little bit lighter, get the foundational stuff right first, get familiar with the technique, get familiar with the movement patterns, and then you can start to progress once you've got the foundation right.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

Right. So what's the so you what so what kind of strength training would you give then? Um, you know, rather than the sort of like the traditional type, um, what kind of uh um um strength training would you give to to your runners who are starting out?

SPEAKER_00 23:15

It's very much targeted to kind of the hip area. So I I think a lot of people have weaknesses and instability in their hips. Yeah. Um again, it it depends on who I'm speaking to.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

Yeah, it can. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Generally what I find is the areas in and around the hip can be quite weak. Yeah. So I kind of assign targeted exercise to strengthen those areas and kind of improve mobility and flexibility in and around the hips. So kind of like your hip flexors, your abductors, your adductors, um, and then primarily as well the glutes, just to try and strengthen up, strengthen up the glutes.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

Okay. Is that sort of things like Bulgarian splits and that kind of thing?

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Or that's kind of um Is that quite kind of falling back into your traditional or conventional strength-based exercises again? Um and you you'll see on my Instagram I've put up a couple of videos of some exercises that we can use to target the hip area um and the pelvic region. So anybody who's listening and is kind of struggling with I guess mobility or lack of stability in round hips, feel free to go and check those out.

Plyometrics Basics And Running Economy

SPEAKER_01 24:23

Yeah, we'll do it. I'll definitely put that in the in the uh description. So I know um plimetrics is a kind of like a big thing um in running. Can you sort of like give give us a bit of a rundown as to what are the benefits in terms of plimetrics and what you know runners should um need to be looking out for on the sort of the pymetric side?

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Again, this is another interesting area.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

There's so much information out there as well. And people see videos of others doing these pliometric exercises, but you have to be super, super careful with pliometrics because of the impact and the load that they put on the body.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:08

If you're trying to do advanced exercise as somebody who's never done pliometrics, you're just on a kind of slippery slope to injuries, essentially.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Um like it, like I said earlier, you have to start with the foundational stuff right and get that correct first and get the body used to the kind of load and the impact that pliometrics puts on the body. Um but the kind of overarching thing that pliometrics do is they kind of improve your running economy.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

They're designed essentially to reduce your ground contact time.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

You've got that quicker turnover um when your feet hit the ground, and it just kind of enables you to run quicker more efficiently. So run quicker with less effort, essentially. So you're not exerting as much effort to run as quickly as you would um kind of without training your body and your lower limbs to have that quicker ground contact time.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

What are some good sort of exercises to start with on the plyometric side? Is it just sort of like kind of, you know, both feet just, you know, up and down, you know, jumping up and down sort of thing with uh straight leg, sort of like for 20 seconds and then have a rest and then doing that again.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

Yeah, that's exactly right. And running itself is a plyometric exercise.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

Yes, that's true, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

That's a good start.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

Um but yeah, like you said, kind of double-legged together and just kind of hopping on the on the ground um or hopping off the ground.

SPEAKER_02 26:37

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Pogos, yeah. Or you can kind of do switch pogos where you're kind of one leg in front of the other and you're kind of back and forth between those. Um, you can kind of do side hops. Those are all kind of really the bread and butter of the fundamentals around pliometrics. But again, starting out, like you said, you can kind of do it for 20 seconds on and then maybe take you know a minute rest or whatever. Right. You're trying to do a minute on or 50 to 100 reps at the start. Like you have to give your body the chance to adapt and improve um to the exercise that you're or to the load that you're putting on it. So start off small, start off with the the real basics, like you said, kind of double pogos or just kind of switch pogos.

SPEAKER_02 27:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

Um, and there's videos on my Instagram as well of real basic biometric exercise as a good starting point.

The Biggest Mistake With Easy Runs

SPEAKER_01 27:29

So when um when when runners come to you, is there any one glaring thing or a couple of glaring things that they sort of kind of get wrong? Um, someone who is kind of a little bit more experienced, and then you kind of have to either sort of navigate them back. I mean, I know, like you said, it depends on the individual, but may there are maybe there are a couple of things that will sort of people you've you found is like Yeah, maybe you shouldn't be doing this, or you know, let's kind of like rein it in or do this, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

Uh probably the biggest mistake I see is people not running their easy runs truly easy.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

Right. Yes, brilliant. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

They end up in this kind of gray zone where they're kind of working a little bit harder than they should be in most sessions, and then they're never kind of truly recovering or truly fresh for their harder, more critically important key workouts like those interval sessions we talked about, or the long run. Um and with the easy runs, what I see is people get too fixated on heart rate and pace.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

I think okay. For example, I I had one athlete and he was telling me he was running easy. And he said, Okay, I read online that to run easy I have to keep my heart rate below 120 beats per minute. So he was like, When I went out running, I did my best to do that. He said I had to walk 80% of the run because I was so fixated on keeping my heart rate below 120 beats per minute because that's what Dr. Google told me to do. Yeah, yeah. And I kind of had to stop him and I asked, like, are you able to run consistently or did you physically feel like you have to walk some of it? And he was like, No, no, like I can I can run no problem for 30 minutes or 40 minutes or whatever it is. But he was like, I thought I had to keep my heart rate under 120 beats per minute to be running truly easy.

SPEAKER_02 29:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Um, but you don't. Like with with easy running, yes, you'll see heart rate zones and things like that on Strava or Google or Garmin or whatever they're using. But with easy running, the main cue that I tell people to do or tell people to look out for is can you comfortably maintain a conversation when you're running?

SPEAKER_02 29:51

Right.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

If you can, you're running easy. Now, for a complete beginner, if they're running easy, their heart rate could be up 150, 160 because they haven't developed a fitness yet.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

But they are still running easy, they're still able to maintain the conversation. But it's just that their fitness hasn't caught up for their heart rate to be able to be down in the I guess zone two range or whatever. Yeah. Easy running. But they're still running easy, it's just relative to their fitness level. So that's what I encourage people to do to run easy. Just ask yourself, can I comfortably maintain a conversation at this kind of effort I'm exerting at the moment while I'm running? Um, and if you feel like you can only kind of speak in a few short sentences or you can only kind of get a few words out before you have to kind of catch yourself, then you're just running too quickly. So just slow down. Best piece of advice I can give, if in doubt, slow down.

SPEAKER_02 30:46

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.