Why Easy Running Feels Hard

SPEAKER_01 0:00

So you're thinking about running, but not sure how to take the first step? My name is Brian Patterson, and I'm here to help. Welcome to Brian's ROM pod. Continuing our conversation with Kane Graham, the Irish running coach based in Sydney, Australia. Well, we finished off our last conversation talking about easy running and how it was important to include it as part of someone's training regime. Well, this week we continue to look into this topic further and also others in this fascinating chat with Ken. I'm sure you're going to really enjoy this chat as much as I did. And if you haven't listened to part one, then please do go back and listen to part one in the library. So without further ado, let's get into part two of my chat with Ken. Because I think I don't know if other people find this. Running easy sometimes is harder than doing an interval session. Because you're for an interval session, you're having to run hard or you're having to run at a certain pace or something like that. And you know that's what you have to run, sort of thing. And it's kind of hard to be running that faster. But I find that running easy, or you know, even for a shorter distance, it seems harder because you're tempted to go faster. And it's like it just it just feels something for me physically harder to do. And you know, by the end of it, I'm thinking because I don't know whether it's because there's more contact time on the on the road or something like that. Do you find that with some of your I mean, I know that's sort of counterintuitive, as it were, but I mean, do you find that with some of your uh athletes or clients? That running easy is kind of a bit of a skill.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Yeah, you you have to be disciplined with it for sure. Yeah. Because on an easy run, when you're kind of going at that slower pace, you'll feel good. So naturally you'll be like, oh, I'm feeling good, I can run a bit quicker. But that's where the discipline comes in.

SPEAKER_03 2:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

The every single run has a purpose. And the purpose of an easy run is just kind of for recovery and maintenance. Now you will you will gain some aerobic fitness from it.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

But you have to be disciplined with it. And it's kind of a mindset shift, mindset shift. Like with easy runs, what I kind of tell people is in the harder runs, we're going to be working hard. So enjoy the easy runs. Don't worry about thinking that you're going too slow. Yeah. The main thing is that they should feel easy. That's the intention of the session. You shouldn't feel like you're working hard, or you shouldn't feel like your heart rate is kind of going kind of 170 or kind of approaching your max. You should just feel nice and comfortable, nice and easy. You should be enjoying it. Throw in a podcast or an audio book or run with a friend and just chat away to them. That's the intention. And that's what it that's the intention of an easy run, and that's what it should feel like. It should feel kind of stupidly easy.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

That's good.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Even if you're you're going into maybe a a walk uh at some stage, or does it have to be you're you're actually running?

Walk Run For True Beginners

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Generally, yeah, you want to keep running. Like and it again, it depends on the person, but on an easy run, you shouldn't feel like you have to walk or you need to walk. You shouldn't be exerting that much effort to feel like you need to walk. Now, if it's a complete beginner and they have no kind of prior running fitness, then you might start them off on a walk-run approach just until you can kind of build up their fitness and build up their strength. Yeah. They can cope with kind of running for longer.

SPEAKER_03 4:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

But for somebody who's running quite regularly, they shouldn't need to walk under easy runs. They should be able to run for the time assigned without kind of exerting too much effort.

Heart Rate Zones Versus Real Life

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Now I know you we sort of you you touched on earlier about heart rate. I mean, um I know sort of if you're doing the calculation, it's totally it's a very uh it's kind of based on the average. But let's say if someone who had done a uh sort of, you know, maybe they've been a bit more experienced and they've done a lactate test and they know what they're because I remember I from many years ago I did one and you know you're able to sort of break down the zones, you know, that could that be could could you introduce that, you know, if someone had gone down that look down that route and that had been quite sort of like scientific in terms of you know they had got something in terms of had a much more better idea as to what their zones are.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

That's kind of the prime scenario where you might kind of dip into looking at something or working um in heart rate zones.

SPEAKER_03 5:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Um just maybe a a little bit more of an experienced runner who's kind of familiar with running by feel and running by effort. Yeah. Might then look into something like trying to get them to work in certain heart rate zones. Yeah. Um in general though, I I try and stay away from it because let's say you want to get a runner running in zone three, right? And in ideal conditions, their zone three, they're running at a pace of let's say five minutes per kilometer. Now, if that same runner with the same fitness ability and running ability goes out and it's particularly hot and humid, running at their five minute per kilometer pace, but they could be up in zone four heart rate.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

Yeah, yeah. It's that heart rate drift. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Exactly. Yeah. It just very much depends on the person. Have they slept well, have they fueled right?

SPEAKER_02 5:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

What's their nutrition like on that day? Maybe they're at the start of kind of an illness and it's just kind of manifesting in the body. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Because the body's trying to fight an infection. It could be hot, humid, windy. There's so many things that can impact your heart rate on any given day. Um so what I really try and encourage my athletes to do is to learn to run by feel and effort. Much more important, I think, than running to a specific heart rate. Yeah. I found that myself running in in the Sydney summer over here. Like, I haven't been able to maintain a pace, a pace that I think I should be able to run at because of the heat and humidity. So I've just had to step it back and say, okay, like this is the effort now that I can maintain for X amount of time on this given day in these given conditions. And you'll still get the same response and same intention of that session. Um, because your body is you're still working as hard, it's just relative to the conditions on that day.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

And I mean, you've touched on something that I've heard before is about that feel.

Learn Effort And Ditch The Watch

SPEAKER_01 7:05

And is it something that maybe with a beginner that you try to get them to be in in touch with? I know that touch is like a bit like, you know, grabbing a tree type of thing. But I mean, is it like is it like now be conscious of how you feel when you're doing this running because that will help you going forward.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

Yeah, exactly. It's just about getting in tune with the body.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Um, and just listening to your body as well. Like, especially like we were talking about on the easy run. Like, if you feel like you're working too hard, then you probably are smoking.

SPEAKER_03 7:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:43

Like learn to kind of listen to your body without getting a bit woo-woo, like you see hugging the trees.

SPEAKER_02 7:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

It's just it's just getting in tune with your body, and it does take a little bit of experience to to kind of be able to learn what that should feel like, or how to kind of approach your sessions and how to get in tune with your body. Um, but you will learn it as you get more experience with the running.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Yeah, I mean, because I know I I was listening to a podcast, Couch the 5K, and they had Steve Cram on it, and I think he does a uh training camp. And I think on one thing they do is they say, okay, we'll get rid of all your watches, and then just go running, you know, and then sort of get a sense of how how you feel with a running. Because I think it's like you said before, you know, paralysis by analysis, you know, how we are sort of like be guided by, you know, our watches, our Garmin's and our Apple Watches or whatever. So um, but how maybe just getting rid of that and then just going out and just being like tot totally, you know, uh naked, as it were, and uh in terms of your in terms of the um technology, um, and then just sort of get a sense of the the the feel of running and enjoy it for what it is.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

I love it. Like absolutely great advice, especially for a complete beginner. Just get rid of the watch, stop obsessing over the data, just go out and run. And as I said, just learn to enjoy it, learn to understand what it feels like. Um you're right, like we do get so obsessed with data, and then we start looking at our own data and comparing that to data online, and we're like, oh, it should be this or I should be that. Yeah. Like you shouldn't be anything. Just go out and run and learn what it feels like and learn to enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

And if anything, that you you you probably might find that you know your performance is is is better because either you're you're not obsessing about it, you're not in your head, sort of thing. And you know, either you're thinking of other things or you're you know, you're uh you're not listening to us anything, you're enjoying what's around you and sort of getting um you know, interacting with nature.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Exactly. You're present with what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Yeah. Yeah.

Motivation And Weekday Energy

SPEAKER_01 10:05

So um in terms of uh being getting someone to stay motivated, because I know like as we talked about, like um we all have busy lives, we're not elite athletes, we're not sponsored by the lottery or anything like that. Um so we're uh so we're um trying to uh and I know I think I find that after uh working uh I find that kind of my energy levels are quite low, whereas during the weekend my energy levels are quite high. So, you know, for instance, uh after the podcast, I'll go for a run. And I've my I know I'm feeling a lot better, much more motivated. My energy is, you know, I want to go for a run. Whereas during the week, it's a lot it's a lot harder to get motivated. What advice would you give to your runners about trying to do uh to do running during during the week itself?

SPEAKER_00 11:02

Yeah, like just while you were speaking there, the first the first thing that came to my mind is just understanding the person, like why are they feeling less motivated during the week or why are their energy levels lower? Yeah. Um and is there anything you can do to maybe help with that? Like, is it uh, you know, obviously during the week we're working and stuff and and we're busy with that, and that's taking up a good chunk of our life, and there might be stress associated with that. Um you know, you might look at their fueling or nutrition, like are they eating well? Um again, they might have you know a bit of illness brewing, which might be kind of making them feel a bit crappy and uh kind of sluggish and be thinking, uh, I'm just not on it today, I couldn't be bothered. So it it really just kind of comes back to to understanding, you know, why why the runner or why the person is not feeling motivated at that particular time. Um and once you kind of ascertain what those reasons might be, then it's just kind of maybe pivoting in the training a bit and kind of finding an alternative approach. You know, maybe if possible, you know, the runner might feel a little bit more energized in the morning, but they have to start work early so they can only get their runs in in the evening. You might see, okay, maybe can we is it possible to shift work a little bit later, get your run in while you're kind of feeling energized in the morning? Um and it's just really about being flexible with the person and the runner in front of you and you know when they're kind of when when when's the best time for them to run and trying to to implement that in their training as much as possible.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

Yeah, yeah. Okay. And then um is it something that if they if they feel comfortable, then to sort of like maybe do the harder sessions at the weekend or and then maybe do the easiest, easier sessions sort of like during the week?

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Or um yeah, like again, it comes back to just being flexible with the with the person in front of you. And typically you kind of work on a kind of Monday to Sunday weekly.

SPEAKER_03 13:07

Right. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

But typically you'll have kind of like your interval or tempo-based session in the midweek, and then you'll have your long run at the weekend. Um now you can kind of flip that a little bit if you need to, right. Depending on the person and their desires. Um it it kind of goes as well, like other people can only run twice a week. So you know, you can't do just one interval session and one long run.

SPEAKER_03 13:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

You kind of have to have that easy running to make up kind of this 80 80 20 general rule where 80% easy running.

SPEAKER_03 13:40

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

But in that regard, you might work on something like a fortnightly cadence where in the first week you might have an easy run and an interval or a tempo run, and then the following week you'd have an easy run and a long run, and then you just loop back around the following week again.

SPEAKER_03 13:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

So it's just kind of using those kind of tips and tricks to have the flexibility to make the running fit the person's life as opposed to the life fitting the person's running.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

Yeah, yeah. And not to get too guilty if you're having to miss a session either for one reason or another. I think that the main thing is that you you're you're able to sort of get back on the treadmill, as it were, so to speak, um, and get back into it. Um, but don't feel you know guilty that you just missed a week or a couple of s or a couple of sessions.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

Yeah, and you shouldn't, because if we think about it like this, right? If you're training for, let's say, five months um and you're doing five runs a week. So five months by four weeks is roughly 20 weeks, right?

SPEAKER_03 14:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

By by five sessions, that's a a hundred runs in five months.

SPEAKER_03 14:45

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

If you miss one or two of those runs, all that is is one to two percent of your training.

SPEAKER_03 14:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

Like sometimes you'll be busy, you'll have stresses, there'll be things going on in your life. And in those scenarios, if you miss a run, it's fine. Sometimes you might be only able to do kind of a bit of a session and look, done is better than perfect. So sometimes it's just a matter of doing whatever you can in your current situation.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

In

Breaking Through A 5K Plateau

SPEAKER_01 15:12

terms of, let's say, going on to the sort of like the mindset and sort of the motivation, and um, and I I accept that it's sort of like it is going to be different for everyone, sort of thing. But if we're sort of hitting sort of like a plateau, like and what we were always sort of like if we're doing regular, I mean we have parkrun. I don't know if you've I I'm sure I'm sure parkrun in Australia. Um and then um so it's the 5k um nine o'clock uh start, but we're always doing, you know, maybe I'm always doing it and I always just do a certain time and I'm not getting any faster sort of thing, or I'm hitting a plateau. Is there anything that we can do to help with that in terms of either trying to improve the time, or is it something that you think, well, you know, let's say if someone came to you and maybe, look, Ken, I'm I'm always doing like 30 minutes, love to do a like a sub 30 for a for a 5k, or even get it down to 26 minutes. So is there anything there that you can tweak in terms of their training to help with helping them prove improve that time?

SPEAKER_00 16:22

Yeah, and again, like coming back to the person, like the first thing I try and do is understand why they're plateauing, like why is why is their kind of progress kind of stagnated?

SPEAKER_03 16:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

And there might be some fundamental reasons for that that you might need to address. But let's let's just say all things are equal and there's nothing kind of sinister going on outside of the running. Yeah, it just kind of comes back to the training then and looking at is the training specific enough to help them improve towards the goal or the time that they're trying to achieve.

SPEAKER_03 16:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:57

Um and generally that's what I look after as a coach. Like I'll always make sure that the training is specific to the goals that people are telling me they want to achieve.

SPEAKER_03 17:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

Um and then yeah, like we we just kind of progress out with the running then towards that goal. Uh kind of like you alluded to earlier, you kind of reverse engineer from it. Um, but yeah, definitely if people are stagnating, and it and it does happen in running, you know, especially people that are running for for longer periods of time, you can't keep improving forever and ever and ever.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

No, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

With the same approach in the training. So you tweak things you tweak things and you try different things. Um, and yeah, you just kind of have to look at the specificity of the training and see how the runner will respond to any tweaks or changes that you make in their training. So it's just an iterative approach.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

Yeah, so it's not just a question, oh well, you need to be doing so-and-so speed sessions or you know, to help improve with your uh speed or anything like that. So it could be it could be anything, it all depends on on what they're doing already.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Yeah. Okay. So um we're coming up to nearly 50 minutes

Coaching On Social Media Grind

SPEAKER_01 18:12

and I could be talking to you forever, so it's brilliant. Um and thank you again, thank you so much for coming on the pod. But um, I know you said earlier that you're not a big fan of of social media, but I came across you on on social media on Instagram. What made you decide to sort of um venture into that space to sort of spread the word, as it were?

SPEAKER_00 18:35

I can't say it was ever my intention. But I guess I've, as a consumer of social media as well, I've seen what's possible with online coaches.

SPEAKER_03 18:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

Um not not so much in the running space, but kind of like in the the kind of strength and conditioning and the kind of fat loss space.

SPEAKER_03 18:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Like I've seen a lot of people do quite well in that space and you know, be able to reach a lot of people and help a lot of people and be able to kind of put out a lot of value through social media. Um and for me, it just comes back to how many people can I help, how much value can I put out, and social media enables me to reach more people, like rather than that kind of one-to-one element. So, again, like we were talking about AI earlier, it's an incredibly useful tool.

SPEAKER_03 19:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Enable me to reach more people and help more people and put more advice and guidance and knowledge and information out there that can hopefully help people on their running journey as well.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Yeah. I mean, I uh I can thoroughly recommend people watch you because you really do break it down as simple terms. And as I said, you are the king of the post-it note, especially when it comes to using different um uh sort of like uh what was it, jugs of um Kool-Aid or whatever it is. So explaining about your energy systems and that kind of thing. So it's brilliant. I thought that was fantastic. And I think that's the best way of making it visual so people can sort of like understand, you know, what's as to what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

Yeah, you know how our our brains are, like our attention span is gone, especially from social media. Um so to make something visual, visually entertaining um while giving the education as well as the key. And just to introduce a bit of humor, you know, I think sometimes we can take life too seriously, so it's nice to just have a bit of entertainment while you're learning.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

Yeah. Is there anything I mean, in um just a general thing, is that does um does uh what's the hard part? Coming up with the ideas of how to make a uh you know certain you know subject matter were interesting or during the producing of because I know you do, but production in behind it or or producing the actual video itself.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Yeah, there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes.

SPEAKER_02 21:00

Yeah, there is, I bet there is, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

Uh considerable amount of time. Um and it's it's a bit of a grind because you do have to kind of, you know, you'll think of a concept and then you have to kind of come up with how are you going to present this in a way that people are gonna be able to digest on social media. Yeah. Like it's one thing talking to a person face to face and explaining a concept to them. It's another thing being able to kind of hold people's attention on social media while explaining what can sometimes be quite complex topics.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

Yes. Yeah. Do you feel pressure that you need to be churning it out sort of like, you know, so many times a week or or whatever?

SPEAKER_00 21:41

Yeah. Where I'm at now, it's just about pumping content. And as I said, it's it is a grind at the moment. Um it's taking up a lot of my time of a full time job on top of my gymming, on top of my running, on top of my coaching, right. And also trying to to live a life. Um But I'm happy enough to kind of just keep the head down, keep working hard, and keep pumping it out there because what I'm seeing is that it is providing a lot of value to people. I mean, I've been blown away by the feedback from it, to be honest. Like what I was expecting is that I'd get a lot of hate comments and people saying this.

SPEAKER_02 22:17

Oh, right. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

99% of the people that are interacting with it, like the feedback has been great. They're saying, love the content, have a marathon coming up, never thought about this. I'm gonna apply this now and it's been life-changing or whatever. And that's the kind of the penny drop moment for me where I'm like, oh, this like everything I'm doing in the background is just so worth it now. Because if even one person benefits from something that I put out, that's my job done in my eyes.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Yeah. Okay. So you um so you're not doing running coaching full-time, is that correct? Or you you've got another yeah, it's okay. So this is a bit of a side hustle, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

It's full time.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Oh, it's full time, it is full-time. Okay, all right. Okay, oh great.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

In terms of I like I am working full-time in another job as well. Yeah. Um, but what I'm saying is the run coaching feels like full time.

SPEAKER_03 23:07

Oh right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

But I love it. I I really, really enjoy it. Um, and who knows, you know, on the future where where things can go with it. But but for now, officially, it's perfect. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Brilliant. Excellent. Okay. Um, so uh we're nearly coming to the end of the podcast. And as I said, um we we could have I could have chatted you two for eight for ages, but I just want to sort of go do a sort of like a bit of a quick fire.

Favourite Sessions And Running Alone

SPEAKER_01 23:33

So um, and you may have I may know the answer to this already. So favorite session, favorite running session. Um do you do you have one?

SPEAKER_00 23:44

I love interval sessions.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

You do.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Because there's a recovery period in between them. So you can kind of like work hard for a while and then kind of get your breath back. So I did an interesting session the week before last, where it was kind of like uh one, two, three, four, five, five, four, three, two, one for minutes. So one minute, two minute, three minute.

SPEAKER_03 24:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

Um, with a two-minute kind of jog recovery in between each one of those. And the first five were kind of done at a 10k effort, and then the back half of the session, so the last five was done at a five kilometre effort.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

Right.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

Things got a little bit spicy after I went past the halfway mark.

SPEAKER_02 24:20

Oh right.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Um is that like a pyramid session? Is that I've heard is it that is it like a pyramid session or something?

SPEAKER_00 24:27

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

Yeah, it is, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

Pyramid-based session. Yeah. Um but the two-minute recoup recovery in between allows you enough time to just about recover before you have to go again.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Um, so I just found that one was a particularly enjoyable session.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Good. So on a long run, do you like running with others or do you rather to run on your own?

SPEAKER_00 24:49

Uh at the moment, I would say 90% of my running is done solo. So it can be a lonely game at times.

SPEAKER_03 24:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

I definitely do enjoy I enjoy it more when I'm running with people. Um and the reason I run solo is just that my training is very specific at the moment. Um, I'm training for the Gold Coast Marathon, which is in 11 weeks from now. Right. Um, so my training is just quite specific.

SPEAKER_03 25:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

Uh so but I was back back home in Ireland for Christmas, and the majority of my running when I was back home was with other people, and I just found it's it's a great way of catching up with people and spending time with people.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

Um, and then it just kind of gives you that bit of accountability as well.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Yeah, yeah, good.

Rest Days And Final Takeaways

SPEAKER_01 25:32

And is there uh just a couple more questions? So so one piece of advice for every runner.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Um I kind of touched off it earlier, just learn to enjoy it. Yeah. Because as I said, once you enjoy it, you'll be consistent with it. And once you're consistent, that's when you'll really see progress.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

And um start with enjoyment.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

What's the biggest miss in running, do you think do you think?

SPEAKER_00 25:59

In fact, there's a few. I would say one of the ones I saw recently was uh I think somebody was spouting off about that you don't actually need a rest day. And that one kind of got me riled up a little bit. And the reason the reason being is because the the stimulus and the stress happens in the training, then the recovery, the adaptation, and the improvement happens during the rest. Yes. That's when the body is healing, that's when the body is absorbing the training, that's when you're getting fitter, that's when you're getting faster. Yeah. So rest days are a critically important component of any decent training plan, and they should be treated accordingly.

SPEAKER_03 26:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

Um so all my athletes, at least one, if not two days of complete rest a week.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Yeah. It's it I mean, I was a great believer that it is just as much as part of your training, you know. So you you have your training, you're breaking down the muscles, or you you know, improving your in your your heart and lungs, and then having the rest is that kind of adaptation, as it were. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

Even even from a psychological standpoint, I find that, you know, let's say you're training hard all week and it comes to Saturday and you have your long run, knowing you have a day off on the Sunday can make you just kind of nail the long run, and then you know that you've got a rest coming.

SPEAKER_03 27:27

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

If you're kind of doing seven days a week every week, there's no kind of whatever about the physical rest, but there's no kind of mental or psychological break from from the running. It can actually be quite mentally fatiguing as well to be run, especially people that are doing quite a large volume.

SPEAKER_03 27:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Sometimes you need that psychological break as well, just a bit of space from it.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I totally, I totally agree with that. Um Right, I just want to say I've really enjoyed um talking to you today. If you just like to hang on just after we shut down, um after we say goodbye. So and then um I just want to say uh thank you very much, Ken, for coming on the podcast. And I hope you've you've enjoyed it. Um obviously I'll give links to also you know social or if you'd like to um say you know where people can sort of get hold of you.

SPEAKER_00 28:19

Yeah, look, um you know it's it's my pleasure coming on here. Like it's been super, super enjoyable. And as I said, I'll I'll ramble about running all day to anybody that's willing to listen. So yeah, hopefully I haven't put you to sleep.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

No. I it's it's with um well, as I said, you're in Australia. Uh I'm in Twickenham, so um this is uh uh was it coming up to eight o'clock now. So uh and it's what must be what five o'clock where you are?

SPEAKER_00 28:47

Yeah, 5 p.m. now in the evening.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

Yeah, yeah, great.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

Yeah. Um so yeah, I I am I am online, I'm on Instagram, uh running with Ken.

SPEAKER_03 28:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

I'm on Facebook as coach Ken Graham.

SPEAKER_03 29:01

Right.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

Um and I'm on TikTok as well, although I don't tend to use TikTok too much. I think that's more for just people wanting to watch people dance around the living room and stuff.

SPEAKER_03 29:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

If I'm gonna put if I'm gonna create content, um it's a no-brainer to put it everywhere I can. Um but Instagram and Facebook are the main um places you'll catch me and coachkengraham at gmail.com as well, if you want to shoot me across an email. Um I'm I'm in the emails every day, so I'm pretty active in there too. Brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Okay. Um all right. Well, I'd just like to say uh thanks everyone to uh for listening. And it's been a brilliant episode with Ken. And um, I'd just like to say uh goodbye from Ken and goodbye from me. And uh anyway, hopefully uh uh you'll be listening to me uh next week as well. So but thank you very much for listening and uh I hope you've enjoyed this episode. Cheers, bye bye.