A Trail Running Hook

SPEAKER_00 0:00

So you're thinking about running, but not sure how to take the first step? My name is Brian Patterson, and I'm here to help. Welcome to Brian's ROM pod. And it's me, your host, Brian Patterson, with some more hints and tips about running. Picture this: you're running along a rugged coastline, waves crashing below you, no traffic, no noise, just you, the trail, and the sound of your own footsteps. Now, for most of us, that probably feels a million miles away from where we are right now. But today's guests started in exactly the same place as many of you on shore, not particularly sporty, but just trying to figure running out. And somehow turn that into running hundreds of kilometers along the coast of Portugal. So in this episode, we're t we're getting into what trail running is really about and what it might just change how you feel about running and how you can get started. So in today's episode, we've got on Brian's Rom pod, we have Jonathan Forbes, who's going to kick off our series on trail running. I'm really excited to have him come on the show as I've been wanting to cover this subject for a while. So let's give a Brian's Rom pod welcome to Jonathan. How are you doing? Thank you. Thank you. Love the intro. Great. Thanks very much for coming.

From Non Athlete To Consistent Runner

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Right. We'd start at the beginning. Is that from what I've hinted at there, then you weren't a national natural-born athlete, is that right? I mean, how did you get into it?

SPEAKER_01 1:49

No, I definitely wasn't. I've never been a natural athlete in any way. Like growing up in northern Sweden, my accent is Swedish. I my happy place was in front of the computer.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

I liked sitting there with my friends playing video games. And that was great. I I was never the person in school being picked for the football teams or or the cool guy doing all the tricks with the football or anything like that. My happy place was with the computer.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Oh right. And yeah. What what what was the I I mean, I don't know much about the curriculum or physical education in Sweden. Were did they try and encourage you or was it pretty much like felt like very equal to other how other subjects?

SPEAKER_01 2:38

I mean so because it's a subject, there's certain things that you have to do that you have to complete to pass the course. But that bar is fairly low. Right. There's no you don't have to be like a super athletic person. You don't have to run fast or far. You don't have to be good at I'm trying to think of like different sports, but football or like handball. You don't have to be very good. You just have to be present and do your best. And so me being I wouldn't call myself like a very obese at that time, but I was definitely on the heavier side. I wasn't the fit person I am now.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

But I mean it's not like in the US it's it's positively encouraged, like physical achievement and they there's well, I suppose maybe because it's a bigger country, there's more money behind like on the high school side of sport. Sweden is not isn't isn't like that. It's it's no.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

No, like we don't have those like when I think of of US like school sports, for example, like we don't have those big like football, American football leagues or schools or anything like that. You know, there's like youth uh competitions, but there's no money behind it.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

It's all volunteer volunteers um doing and it's and is that that same at like university level? Or they're like like over here in the UK, we have certain universities that excel at if you wanted to do sports science, you go to let's say there's a there's one in called Luftborough, which is in the like central part of England or Bath or something like that. Is that the same thing in in Sweden? Or some which specialise in sports science?

SPEAKER_01 4:20

We have some schools, some high schools where you have the opportunity to go in a certain general direction, but it's not very specialized at all. It's very still general. But I like the difference between one high school and another is really just that you have one extra subject. So if you pick a school that's more focused on physical education or a specific sport, then it's the difference is just that you have one extra subject focused on that sport and that you chose. I for me, I I was and I still am a very creative person. Right. I was always into graphic design, painting, creating, anything creative, really, I've always found very fun. So that was my focus in high school. So yeah, completely unrelated to anything fitness related. But so that that was the case until for many years, up until I was about like 15 or so. Yeah. And around this age is where so okay, so I guess for some for some context, my parents are very active people, they're very healthy people. My mum, her whole life has been has been very into very active in like orienteering and running trail running. And my dad has been always very like a big strong guy, very cool and gym, gym, gym guy. Alright. Jim Jim Jim Bunny. So so definitely inspired me, like now, even as an adult.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

But at that time, when I was 15, I remember it so well the first time my mom asked me to come with her for a workout. Or maybe it wasn't the first time, but it's the first time I remember at least. Okay. And so I was sitting there at home at my computer, playing video games like every other night. Very happy. Um, she came, she was about to go for one of her one of her usual runs. And she asked me, Hey Jonathan, do you wanna come with me? I'm I'm going for a run. And I was sitting there, like happy in my little happy place. Like, no, I I don't want to go. Why why would I? Yeah. But she kept asking.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Okay. Oh, so she didn't say drag you out to say, no, you must come back. No. Okay. No, no. You just slanted the seed, as it were.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

Exactly. I don't know for what reason, but eventually I did, I did say yes when she asked enough times. And uh obviously, like I I was no runner, I was no fit person, so I couldn't run like a hundred meters, right? 500 meters, anything like that. I I I was completely dead the moment I started moving my legs. Yes. But it like she kept asking, I kept coming, and those 100 meters went from 100 to 500 to 1 kilometer to 5 kilometers to 10 kilometers. Oh, right. And it kind of spiraled from there. And I remember so well we had this little loop next to home. It was a three-kilometer loop, and had this very, very steep, or at least I remember it as very, very steep hill. And uh for a long time this loop was like like we did it. I did a long run, like I did a good run, three kilometers felt great. Um, but then that slowly became the five kilometers of it.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Yeah. So was it more about the endorphins you felt afterwards, or was it a fact that it was something you were challenging yourself? It was like you, like you said, you did a hundred meters and then it went to five hundred and then a kilometer and whatever you were pushing yourself to achieve more goals.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

I'm a lot more aware of the reasons why I do what I do now as an adult than I was back then. Looking back at it, I was never like I didn't go running for the sake of like intentionally knowing that hey, I will feel good after I do this. I didn't think it was more just a thing of like I've done it once, I can do it again. I know it's good for me. It became, I think it became a part of lifestyle. Like I said, especially having my parents also being very active. This is way up north in Sweden, nature all around, so the outdoor life is is part of of of life. It's very hard not to be outdoors. So I'd say that was the the reason why I I was going for these runs for a very long time for many years, and only changed as I as I became an adult, and I can get into more reasons for that.

Heartbreak And Running For Clarity

SPEAKER_00 8:58

Well let's do that. I mean, let's fast forward to how it it became much more of a serious activity, a much serious hobby. So when did when did that happen? Were you I did you go to university and did it happen while you were there? You you you became more independent and then you felt this is something that I can I can take hold of and make my own.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Yeah. So funny, you you mentioned university. I've always been the type of person that just goes my own path. I if anyone tells me to do something, I do the opposite. Okay. So university is one of those things that I've I've started two universities for two completely different educations, and I dropped out both times. Okay. So university was never you know part of my life.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

But well, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs didn't complete their universities. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

That's why I'm doing it. But you know, I think I'd say in like high school is when I had this very consistent routine, like late high school, the end of high school. It's when I had this very consistent routine of running more or less every day before or after school. It wasn't any crazy distances, it was more the five, ten Ks. Just for the sake of doing it. And in my little friend circle, I was like people knew me as the person who runs. Like it was a well-known fact that I I I was running. But it wasn't like a big part of my personality or or the way I like identify myself. That came later, as say, I don't know, when I was maybe like 1920. Right. And at this point, I had actually moved to France away from Sweden, living with my ex.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Oh right, okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

And at that time running was like a huge thing in my life. That's at that point it had taken over my life. It was what I was doing. Right. I was never the type of person to sign up for races. It was always just my daily mindfulness exercise, like feeling good type of thing. But still, I I kept it very consistent, more or less every single day.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

And that could you s and did you see obviously the benefits of that? Be it like did you feel that your body was changing? Were you like in terms of mental health? I mean, what would what benefits were you seeing there?

SPEAKER_01 11:30

So still I would say even at that time, despite being so consistent and having it as a big part of my life, I still wasn't aware of like why I was doing it for them. Like sure, but like I enjoyed it, it was fun, it was cool to be that.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

So there's no structure to it. There was no like long run, tempo run, sprinting, nothing like that.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Okay. No structure at all. If I felt for if I felt like going for a couple hours around, then I did that. If I didn't, no structure. So like at that time it was still just a good vibes thing. It only became like I only became aware of why I was so consistent with running a couple of years later, and now we're like this is about three, four years ago at this point. And and that's so at that point I had moved away from France, the that relationship ended, and I eventually made my way to to Portugal, which is where I still live. And it was around this time that running became even bigger and more important part of my life, and I started becoming aware of why I was running so consistently.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Going through what was my first breakup was obviously very devastating heartbreak and very tough, and I think probably still affects me in different ways. And so running became a huge way to very important way to deal with that breakup. So I was there in Portugal all alone, didn't know anyone, tried to you know find my way there. I I was working remotely, so I could be anywhere, but still I didn't have any connections. So running and exercise was the thing I had very consistently in my life that I could rely on. Right. It's like you when you ask what it was giving me and like what benefits. Yeah, it's mental clarity, and I didn't know it at the time, but I know it now that I have at least some variation of ADHD. And so it helps me massively to to focus, to have a clear mind. Right. Okay. Just handle everyday interactions. I know now at this point, a day where I don't exercise, my head is just like it's about to explode. It doesn't work. Um it started spiraling when I met this person in Portugal that I can also get into.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

You're right.

What Makes Trail Running Different

SPEAKER_00 14:03

I mean, let's get into trail running. I mean, we'll so for people who are new to it, what do you see as being, let's say, I mean, people I mean like myself, who just normally just go running on the road and it's a flat surface or whatever. What do you see as being the main challenges for someone new to coming into that sport? Or what do you see as being the main chain main differences?

SPEAKER_01 14:32

I'd say there's several parts to it. Like there's one, the the I guess boring aspect of many people simply don't have access to trails, depending on where you live. If you live in a big city, the best thing you might have is a park if you're lucky. And that's that's often concrete as well. So there's there's that boring part, boring reality that you might not have access to it. But then from a running perspective and physical perspective, the biggest change by far is that it requires a lot more of your body.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

So like when you run on asphalt or at least like semi consistent ground, it's the same exact motion over and over and over. So like your body and legs know how it's gonna feel, how the next step is gonna feel. It's the exact same muscles, exact same tendons over and over and over. But then in trail running, depending on the train, you you you can be in if you're in the Sahara running like I've been doing, or if you're in like steep mountains, or if you're in your local little couple kilometer trail, like it's wildly different and uses completely different parts of your of your body. And so the like the a short version of saying it is that the biggest difference for sure is that it requires a lot more of your body. You have to prepare, you have to strengthen your body in in in ways that you simply don't have to in what is it called? Street street running. Road running. City running. Road running.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

Yeah. I mean, I mean, you must there must be, I mean, from where you were coming from in Sweden in the north, there must have been you must have been spoilt for trails where you could go. And um and obviously you would obviously have to A know where you're where you're going or what trails are available and be closed appropriately for those particular trails.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

Mm-hmm. Of course, growing up, I I'm actually right now at my parents' place up north in Sweden. Oh yeah. So like if I if I step out the door right now, it's just nature all around. Brilliant. I don't have to I don't have to go anywhere. Yeah. And I think this, whether I know it or not, this closeness to nature has shaped a lot of my inspiration and passion for trail running. I I have a huge need for being in nature. I think a lot of it comes from growing up with with trees just outside the house. Yeah. So you mentioned like in being clothes, being clothed appropriately for for different climates, different weather when trail running. It's something that has come naturally for me growing up where I've grown up. That you now we have this saying that there's no bad weather, it's only you you can only dress the show. There's no bad weather, you can there's only bad clothing. Oh right, this I know, I understand, yeah. So so I bring that very much into trail running. So like if I am That's your philosophy, as it were. That's right. You can do anything, you just need to prepare for it.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

Yeah. I mean, one of the things that obviously it's brand fantastic for your mindset. I mean, not wanting to skip ahead a bit of it. But just to give you a bit of a backstory, I went running I it's pretty flat around here where we are in Twickenham, which is Greater London outside London. We're very near, we're between Greater London and the airport. So it's Twickenham, so that's what it's pretty flat, whatever. But we went on holiday in France and and I was pitching off somewhere to to go running, and it was just maybe a little 5k route. So I the only thing any place I could go was like around the village, around the village, the nearest village. But it was the village was like on a hill. So and the thing I noticed was that when I came back, it is my Achilles was killing me because I wasn't used to running on a hill. Now I I'm envisaging that in for trail running, in terms of any strength training and preparation, you have to have a different approach compared to normal running. Is that is that correct?

Strength Training For Trails

SPEAKER_01 18:50

Very different. Like me when I coach people, something I I put a lot of emphasis on is that okay, a couple of things. Two things. One, the only thing your body knows is stress. Stress comes in so many different ways. There's work stress, family stress, financial stress, relationship stress, and then there's the stress of exercise. And this stress, like both mental and physical, is like I mentioned earlier, a lot uh stronger in when you're doing trail running. Because it's just a lot more variables compared to street running, road running. And uh so what this means practically is that yes, strength training is very important if if you want to be in trail running for a long time and for years to come. I personally and people I work with, I try to do strength training of various versions, but strength training two, three times per week. Right. Okay. And it ranges from you know like a few sets with heavy weights to like high reps with low weights. Right. But the key, like the the the most important part, is that that you condition your muscles to be able to handle different different angles of landing with your feet, different cavings. It's like when when you're roadrunning, you can it's it's basically a science. Like you can fuel the exact, perfect, like scientific way that's proven in a lab. But it's that's that's not the case in when you're out of the trails, because especially being in a race, it can be, depending on the distance, can be two, three, four hours between checkpoints.

unknown 20:30

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Meaning like several hours between you getting food and water. So your body's gonna be very fatigued, and when your body fatigues, your form changes, your form generally gets worse. Yeah. And so when your form gets worse, that also means that it puts a lot more pressure in places that you normally don't have. And so that's like those are the moments where it's so important that you have previously that you have strengthened what needs endurance, endurance strength training.

SPEAKER_00 21:00

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

And so like areas that many people tend to be lacking in is the glutes, is like a classic kind of thing. People trail runners and runners overall need to focus more on and then the calves also are an area that people tend to be lacking. So it's about like it's this it's this full package. Many people, I think people like just getting into running, and honestly, I see some coaches as well, look at just the running itself and and go, okay, just run more, run faster, do more miles, spend more hours training. But most of the time that's not gonna be beneficial. Usually what will be beneficial is spending time in the gym working on I guess what some people see as boring, like things like balance and f functional movements where you're using several parts of your body to stabilize. Yes. Things like the core, I I work a lot, a lot, a lot on my core because it's such a such an important part to to running. And many people miss that completely.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

Yeah. It's like maybe if one can imagine like on a percentage scale, like for normal road running, maybe a 70, you're training running, 30 split is more of a 50-50 in terms of your training and the strength training. And obviously that that that is that a good way of looking at it.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

I would say something like that. Maybe not 50-50, but maybe something more like 40-50, 40%. Well 40-60%.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Yeah.

Form, Fatigue And Staying Durable

SPEAKER_00 22:42

But I mean, I mean uh so you would say in summary that because I know when you're doing road running, it's all about higher cadence, looking at form, I think, not not a heel strike and midfoot running. Whereas when you're trail running, you've got to you're slightly throwing that all out the window because you d A, you don't know what surface you're gonna have underneath you. But also the other thing is is that to make sure that you're prepared sufficiently with the strength training that you've done, either doing glute work, core work, and with doing your your calf work as well. Yeah.