Welcome And Part Two Setup

SPEAKER_01 0:00

So you're thinking about running, but not sure how to take the first step. My name is Brian Paterson, and I'm here to help. Welcome to Brian's ROM pod. Welcome back to Promise Run Code, and it's meeting your host Prime Hudson on some more hints and tips about running.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

But at the end of the day, especially in trail running, reality will be different from when you're looking at the numbers to when you're out there 370 kilometers into a trail run. You have to have a well-rounded, strong body that's ready to take on any type of surface and any type of conditions. Many people think of running as a as as cardio, as a cardio exercise. But really, I mean yes it is, but really, when you boil it down, it's thousands and thousands of single ideas. Boom, boom, hundreds. I see this in myself. I'm aware of it. I haven't become aware of it. Um become an adult. Um I wish more people had that. I wish more people had that slight belief in themselves. The way I see it, if you're a person that normally aren't able to make any time for exercise in your day, the way I see it, you can have five or ten minutes like squats in your kitchen while you're holding your baby. Like that's a huge win.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Those are just a few highlights from my upcoming conversation with Jonathan Fors. Jonathan Fores, uh Trailrunner from Northern Sweden. Um, this is part two of my uh interview. So if you haven't heard part one, do go back uh through the catalogue and catch up with this fascinating uh conversation. So there's plenty more to explore. So without further ado, let's get into it.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

For

Metrics Versus Real Trail Reality

SPEAKER_00 2:09

me, the way I see running or exercise as a whole, really, is that you can dig deep into the science of things, you can look at the numbers, the metrics, and measure everything. But at the end of the day, especially in trail running, reality will be different from when you're looking at the numbers to when you're out there at 3 a.m. 70 kilometers into trail run. Like you can't compare lab results with reality. They're two often two completely different things. And so when people talk about consuming X amount of carbs per hour or like this and that amount of sodium per hour, like doing this split versus that split, it's like surely it matters to some extent, absolutely, especially if you're trying to push for the like placements, podium placements, it matters. But at the end of the day, for most people, like 90% of people, you just need to strengthen your body, like you need to have an uh a well-rounded, endurant body. Like a big reason why I named my coaching business ultra-endurant is because I I really believe people need to create a an endurant body, not a specialized one.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

And that goes for beginners and people aspiring for professional placements.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Like I said earlier, like everything affects, everything affects your performance. And so if you if you're a fast runner, like you're able to physically move your legs very fast, they may be beneficial in some parts of a trail race. If you're if it's a relatively flat section of a race, it might be beneficial to be that fast, fast mover. But then if I take myself as an example, I tend to do very well in uphills. Right. I'm a heavy, heavy guy, I'm 190, 1 meter 90 centimeters. Okay, quite tall. And and like I'm big boned, is naturally. So I'm not the typical typical body that you think of when you see when you think of a runner. And so for me, uphills is generally where I pass a lot of people. Because I have a strong, chunky, like wooden log type of legs. I'm not I'm not necessarily fat. That's your strength. But yes, exactly. And it's it's been working well for me. So, but the the point I'm making is that you have to have a well-rounded, strong body that's ready to take on any type of surface and any type of conditions.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

And then if you're looking for podium placements, yes, you will need to specialise.

Building A Strong All Terrain Body

SPEAKER_01 4:49

So can we be a bit more specific for let's say for the audience, let's say if they were looking to maybe get some basic exercises in the gym, which ones would you would you recommend? Are you looking at Bulgarian deadlifts?

SPEAKER_00 5:05

So go on. So what I what I okay, so I guess first thing is that it's hard to say one type of exercise or a few and a few exercises. Fair enough. Because every single person will be very different. Like some people is have great balance, others have not. But if you were if I were to generalize, single leg exercises for sure is the way to go. So that's things like ATG split squats, Bulgarian split squats.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

And even like hip thrusts, single leg hip thrusts.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:45

And so single-leg movements is is by far the the RDLs. Exactly. Single leg RDLs. Because many people think of I actually posted this on threads recently and people got a little bit upset. Right. I I I said that many people think of running as a as as cardio, as a cardio exercise. But really, I mean yes, it is, but really, when you boil it down, it's thousands and thousands of single-leg just boom, boom poundings. And so you have to have a solid base, like a leg that can handle if you're going for ultra distances, thousands and thousands and thousands of repeated pounding.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

And so that's why I personally, and people I work with, we focus a lot on these single leg exercises. And that's not to say that odder more and more traditional, like squats and that thing, it's not important. That's you need different pieces, you need several pieces.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

No, I mean it's something that I've been aware of aware of because in the last 18 months I've been injured twice. And I'm carrying a bit of an injury to my Achilles at the moment, as I said earlier, when I also had a glute problem like about 18 months or I think. But going to physio and going to an expert has given me a better understanding of the types of exercises that I should be doing. So even when I've overcome the injury, and I think this is one lesson, I could still carry on doing those exercises. Yeah. Um, it doesn't introduce me to plyometrics, like thing. I don't know if plymetrics is that much of an important thing for trail running. I'm not sure because it's it's totally plumetrics is important.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

I I would caveat it with that people often use the word plyometric exercises in in a wrong way. That's not actually accurate. Okay. People people when people often say that they're doing plyometric exercises, but really what they're doing is like the exercise the type of examples I gave you moments ago of like slow, controlled, single-leg movements.

SPEAKER_02 8:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

If you look at the actual definition of what plyometric exercises is, it's like dynamic, high, high-intensity, like fast movements. So that's what plyometrics is. And if you go by go by that definition, then it's mostly important for like shorter distance, I guess anything below like marathon distance.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

That's where it's most important. But there's benefits to everything. Like, like I said, like it's you want the full, well-rounded package, your body to be prepared for anything. But me generally, and people I work with for for ultra distances, we generally don't do much biometric exercises in that definition. So I'd I'd be mindful

Single Leg Strength Work That Matters

SPEAKER_00 8:49

of of how you use the term.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

Okay. The how did you get into just as an aside, how did you get into the coaching side? So obviously you you were in enjoying the running and you felt that it was something that you could take it to a different space. How did you feel well maybe I could be of benefit to others?

SPEAKER_00 9:10

So it goes back to where we where I ended the story earlier, where I moved to Portugal. Yes. And it's and I started becoming aware of why I was running. After the breakup. Exactly. I met this guy, this guy from the UK there in Portugal, and he I often talk about him when I talk about this type of topics because he's had a huge impact on all my running, but now my life, because of where I've ended up. But he's this to give you some context, like he's this like a mid-50s guy, got a great high profit business doing well in life as a family, kids, and all that, uh, and has a long history of doing all kinds of different extreme ultra-distance races.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

To give you one example is MDS Legendary, which is a uh 250 kilometer race through the Sahara Desert. Wow. So so he's done these types of like crazy races. Crazy things, yeah. And not only that, but he's you know a bit of a character. Okay. You you notice him, you notice him. Um me being being a young guy, and still still am a young guy, I'm inspired by this type of characters.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

That uh has has some charisma, has some confidence to them, but still doesn't take themselves too seriously. And so because I was getting more and more into running, he he noticed this. And one one day has suggested that hey, I know this 100-mile race in in the north of Portugal, you should sign up. And I was like, okay, I don't know, that's a big challenge. But eventually I came around and I signed up and uh you know I I it's it's a long story, but I I you know started training harder and had a had a goal. It was the first real race that I was training for. It was previously was just running for for the sake of running. But I eventually I completed this this race.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

Okay, well done.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

To thank you. To but but actually let's let's go back a little bit. During this race, I I was very, very, very close to to quitting as it goes in this type of ultra distances. Yeah, there was this moment about 90 or 100 kilometers into it where I have had that this injury in my in my left knee, I believe it was. Yes, yeah. And I thought it was under control, I thought it was gone, but suddenly at this this 90, 100 kilometer mark, I started feeling it again. And that just really messed with my head.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Bad place. Because I was like, oh fuck, I can't, I can't, I can't have this injury happen now. No, probably not. Um but uh I was talking to to my girlfriend, I was calling her, she was there to support, and I was saying, like, I don't think I can do this, it's um I'm in a bad place, blah blah blah. And what we ended up saying was that okay, let's just continue to the next checkpoint and we'll talk down. And just a few minutes later, out of nowhere, this this guy from the UK, I'll I'll I'll keep him anonymous, this this friend. He was just there waiting to check in on me, because he was also there to support. And he didn't know about my state of mind or that I was ready to quit or that I was in pain. But he was just there checking on me, and we ended up spending about 30 minutes just walking together, talking. Didn't talk about anything special, it was just chit-chatting, having a good time. But I like in hindsight, I probably can see how he knew that I was in a bad spot.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

It's funny how those moments you it's amazing how suddenly someone can appear from somewhere you don't know panic is either it encourages you and you can it it it it just comes at just the right time exactly so so like I I enter that conversation ready to quit, but then as soon as as soon as we finished that conversation, I I was I was ready to go after top of the world, it never felt better.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

And I I remember thinking at the time, like if I have to amputate this leg, like I'll finish this race, it doesn't matter. Like that's the that's the mindset shift that happened. And so I've had these moments in different races that I've done throughout the years now, and so like I see I see what it brings to me in terms of overcoming hard moments, building some character for myself and and and showing myself, proving to myself that I'm capable. And I looking around like friends and people just in my surrounding,

What Plyometrics Really Means

SPEAKER_00 14:06

many people obviously have like low self-esteem or don't think they can achieve certain things. And I've always been the person that, like I mentioned earlier, I I when someone tells me what to do, I do the complete opposite. But along with that, I also have this completely just blind belief in anything I do. Like if if I sit out to do something, I fully believe I can I can do it no matter how crazy that goal is. So I see this in myself, I'm aware of it, I have become aware of it as as I've got become an adult. And I wish more people had that. I wish more people had that blind belief in themselves. And I think one way to prove that is to go through something hard and come out the other end of it. Right. And so ultra running is such a I could say simple, but in the air quotes, simple way to put yourself through something hard and prove to yourself that you can get out on the on the other side. Right. You can be such a better person for it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

So is it that growth through fear of failure? That's the the philosophy behind it.

SPEAKER_00 15:19

I wouldn't say necessarily fear of failure. To me, fear of failure has a negative connotation to it because it's like a fear of something. It's more that you're I'm speaking for myself, but like it's more a pull towards a better version of myself. It's less of a running away from something, but rather a pulling towards something.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

So with the coaching, it's not just about the technical side, but it's also a mindset.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

100%. 100% ultrarunning is at least 50-50 mental and physical. Right. You can you can you can train your body all you want, you can put in the hours, put in the consistent month after month, after month. But the reality is that your body will break down, right? You will face issues if you go through a 100, 200, 300 kilometer race. It's just a matter of when. It's not a matter of if. And so in those moments when your body starts breaking down, it's all in here, it's all in your mind. And so you may I I recently talked to this this person I have been working with for a while. He uh I'll keep him anonymous, of course. But he he's he's been having some some uh life issues, family issues, and uh he has been using running as a way to cope with it. But then on top of that was also some injuries

How Coaching Grew From Ultrarunning

SPEAKER_00 16:51

and uh that that stopped him from running. And so that's obviously hard. And so I spoke with him recently and he was explaining that it feels like he's not doing anything, that he's not progressing, that he's not going anywhere. But I I had to explain to him and reality check him that no, like if we look at the paper here, like we see that you are like one, you're following we are progressing injuries being your your life situation better, but it feels still to this person that you're stuck in it. So I think it's often very beneficial to have someone like a coach or a friend or a loved one that sees you from the outside and can reality shake you. Like, no, no, like the you feel this way, but the facts are different. Um, so that's a huge part of ultra running, I think.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

And I think it I mean lately I've found I don't know after I don't know what it was after I came back from holiday and I started running again, but I started running a lot more within myself and I found I enjoyed it so much more because I don't know what it was. I was I know it's not trail running or whatever, but I mean I just found I was able to breathe better. I had I was a much is it okay, it was a much slower, but I just felt I was enjoying it more and I got I felt I just feel as if I got my my mojo mojo back. Whereas sometimes beforehand, I know I'd I'd try I'd go out running, but I'd have this mindset, oh no, I'd read it, or the first ten minutes now before I can get into it. But now I just feel I'm I'm I'm really enjoying it. I don't know if that's that's a way of you know adding on to what you've just said, but it in sure it's uh it is so like you said, it's so much a mindset thing and enjoying it and just but just taking a step back and just slowing down has helped me enormously recently.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

Yeah. No, I've I've related to what you're saying a lot. For the longest time, running and specifically ultra running for me was I guess in hindsight almost about torturing myself. I I had this this vision for a long time of like how far can I push myself and my body until I literally lay in a ditch in fetal position instead of crying from pain. Like it's it sounds extreme, but that's that's literally what I was seeking. Like, how far can I take it until that happens? And like I I completed races here and there and I did quite well with that mindset, but I about I think like six months ago now, I I know more than that. Well, regardless, I started working with this coach for my own running, and she introduced this concept of having fun. If you've ever heard of it, strange, uh very strange, and so she just laid it out very plainly. Like, you are doing this running because you enjoy it. You're in you enter the races voluntarily, yeah. No one is forcing you to be there, no one is forcing you to do these everyday runs, and like no one is forcing you. It's all it's all up to me. Yeah, and so if I'm not enjoying it, what is the point? Why am I doing it?

SPEAKER_01 20:28

And so she's and you see kids do it. It's like I see kids in the park, and suddenly they'll they'll just go from sprint and they'll be oh, wait for me, or something like that. But they're not thinking about what they're doing. And it's like we as adults is right, have I got my watch and have I got the right gear? And right, I'm going for it. We took maybe we take it too seriously.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

For sure, for sure. I like

Mindset Shifts When Things Fall Apart

SPEAKER_00 20:55

for me, I most of my runs I don't even track. Uh I have two watches, actually, two devices that can track, but most of most of my exercises I don't don't track at all. And I like I think this is something that can like one way of cultivating this fun mindset is through like you're working with someone like a coach or an external person or or having like people around you that you exercise with. At the end of the day, the the the core reason why you're exercising should be there is fun.

unknown 21:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

There's always different different reasons for it, but like one of them should be for fun. Right. Right. What are we here on the earth for? Exactly. Enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

Exactly. I mean, before I mean I can't believe we've we've coming up to nearly 50 minutes, but can we just go on to talk about your you running the coast of Portugal? So was this was this a race or was this something that you'd been planning with some other people?

SPEAKER_00 22:01

It was just a thing I decided to do one day. For better or worse. For a bit of fun. For a bit of fun, I guess. So I the coast of Portugal, or at least the route that I mapped out, is 744 kilometers. It's relatively flat for the distance. It was a total of about six or seven thousand elevation difference. Okay. But so I've tried it twice, completed once. And so the first time around, I was pretty spontaneous. The way the idea came to me was that in recent years, running especially on social media has become a bit of a trend. It's like it's what people do nowadays. And so there's this guy called Russ Cook. Right. The guy from the UK who ran the entire not the coast, but the length, I believe it was, of Africa. Just straight Africa.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

So an entire continent, which that's a different level. But so there's this this guy and other people running the lands of countries, which is crazy. And so I saw these people doing it, and me being me, I was like, I could do that. Why not? Like if I if I if I try, I should be able to. So the

Learning To Run For Fun

SPEAKER_00 23:23

seed was planted.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

And a couple months later, I ended up renting a van, um, bringing my girlfriend to to so she was a support.

unknown 23:33

Support. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

She was exactly she was in driving the van and keeping me alive and supporting me and so on in so many ways. But I think because of my lack of preparation the first time around, I I didn't complete it. I only made it to I keep getting the timelines wrong. I say it's three days. My golf princess is two days, regardless. I didn't make it very far that first time. So about like 200 kilometers, maybe, and then I did like an extra 100 as like a fun thing. But point being, I didn't make it the full distance.

unknown 24:09

Right.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

And looking back at it, a pattern that I that I notice in ultra races, in projects I do, is that I'm I'm very ambitious. I go into it with a mindset of I can pull this off. I've done hard things. But as soon as I enter it, I'm like, oh, this is hard. Oh.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

So do you think there was a maybe a bit of a lack of planning or definitely, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Not necessarily like planning in terms of equipment or training, but rather just some mindset. Because it really hit me in the face. Okay, this is a long, this is a long way to go. So I didn't complete it first time around. Two years later, now just a couple months ago, we decided to do it again. And this time I did a couple things differently. One, I in between that time, I had bought my own car with a rooftop tent, so I didn't have to rent a van, but I was saving money. So we had basically infinite time to complete it. And then second, I took time off from work so I could focus on doing this only on running, which huge difference, made a massive difference. Having to not only, like the first time I ran, having to not only run an ultra distance every single day, but also work in the evening, right? No, exactly. Yeah. That's a stressful disaster. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

And also, I mean, I suppose the first time was a tress rehearsal, I suppose. And now you what you're facing.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

I'd say what you said, like the the knowledge of just knowing, knowing what you expect, not having that slam in the face of like, oh, reality hits hard.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

But still, like you still, I I pulled 8, 10, 12 hour days sometimes. Some days I did just uh 40-50 kilometers, others they other days I did around 100 kilometers. And my goal was to complete the full distance in two weeks, 14 days. Uh somehow I managed to pull it off in just 10 days, 10 days. Uh so that's maybe that's like 74 on average a day.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

Wow, that's incredible. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

As far as I'm aware, if anyone hearing this, feel free to correct me. But as far as I'm aware, I'm the only person who's done it.

Running The Coast Of Portugal

SPEAKER_01 26:42

Brilliant. Okay.

Finishing Advice For New Runners

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Well, Jonathan, we're coming to the end of the podcast. Are there any hints and tips that we haven't covered for people who are looking to get into trail running or who might think about venturing into the sport that we haven't covered already?

SPEAKER_00 27:00

I think we've covered a lot of it. I'd say, like, some final words would be to if you're someone that's a a beginner or someone who wants to take the next step in the running, the the key thing is to just start. You don't have to have a plan, the perfect equipment, the coach. You don't have to have all these pieces. It's just about doing a little bit more, changing your training, just putting your shoes on. The way I see it, if you're a person that normally aren't able to make any time for exercise in your day, the way I see it, even a five or ten minute like squats in your kitchen while you're holding your baby, like that's a huge win. That's the way I see it. So don't don't make it into this big thing. Just do a tiny little step. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

One step at a time. Great. Okay. Uh you've been a fountain of knowledge, and I've really, really enjoyed talking to you. Um, if you'd like to stick around after we say goodbye, that'd be fantastic. But I just want to say, as an introduction to trail running and also your story and how you got into it, this has been a fantastic conversation. So, but I'd like to say goodbye from Jonathan, and I'll say goodbye from myself, and thank you very much for listening to us. Bye-bye.