First Step Into Running

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So you're thinking about running, but not sure how to take the first step? My name is Brian Patterson, and I'm here to help. Welcome to Brian's RomPod.

Trail Running Series And Guest

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Hi, welcome to Brian's RomPod, and it's me, your host, Brian Patterson, on some more hints and tips about running. Well, trail running isn't just about running on dirt, it's a completely different skill set. The terrain changes, the pace changes, and the way you think about running changes too. In this episode of our trail running miniseries, I'm joined by Andrew Erasmus, an experienced trail runner and coach from South Africa. He is here to help you make the move from road to trail with confidence. We'll unpack how to train for changing terrain, tackle climbs and descents, staying safe outdoors, and let go of pace when the trail demands something different. So whether you're planning your first off-road run or looking to become a stronger, more adaptable runner, this is your practical trail running starter guide. And let's get into it and give a Brian's RUM pod welcome to Andrew. Great. Thank you very much for coming on the podcast, Andrew. How are you? And did I get that surname right? Is that Erasmus?

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Erasmus, yes. Erasmus.

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Yeah. Close enough. So as I said, you're an experienced coach

Andrew’s Route Into The Mountains

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with within trail running, obviously, probably you know running in itself. But I just wanted to go right to the beginning as to how were you kind of like a natural athlete when you grew up in South Africa at school and in high school?

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Yeah, so I ran a lot at school. I really loved running. After school, I gave it a bit of a break, but slowly made my way back into it. So matter about 2013, I stepped back into running properly and jumped into trail running. Oh right. And since then started running at an elite level and been doing that ever since.

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Alright, so so with what what you know what was it that kind of you felt like this is something I preferred as opposed to running on the road? Or were you doing running on the road and doing trail running at the same time?

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Yeah, so I I got into running again to run Comrades Marathon.

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Okay.

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And in the trainings of that, I I got asked to go do a couple of trail races. And I just absolutely fell in love with it. We've got such beautiful countrysides, we've got the Draketsburg, and from the time I just went up into the mountains, I just said I have to keep coming back. I have to keep coming to see as much of this as possible. And that just led to to trail racing.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Right, right. Is it in terms in South Africa, is it is it quite a big, very popular sport there over there?

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Yes, yeah. It's actually just growing and growing, as is road running though. So I think a lot more people post-COVID just started getting more involved with with being healthier and fitter, got onto the road, and in South Africa that's also just led to a lot of people getting out of the trails, which is incredible.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

I mean, let's I mean for my audience, probably predominantly I'm assuming that most of them are maybe roadrunners or getting into into running. But what can we see as being the main differences between I know there obviously there may be obvious things, between road running and

What Changes From Road To Trail

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then trail running?

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I mean Yeah, so there are quite a few differences. I think it all depends on how you get into trail running and how technical trails are. But the obvious differences are going to be how technical running becomes, which obviously changes your your running form, your stride. Not all trail runs are into the mountains though. Some are more cross-country feel, which is a lot easier for roadrunners to adapt to. But it is completely different once you start getting into more technical trails, into the mountains, altitude, steep climbs, steep descents, crossing rivers, that type of thing. It does change a lot.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

So are you kind of have to be prepared for the unexpected, as it were?

SPEAKER_02 4:16

I mean, obviously every trail run, they try and give you a course profile and a route map so that you can actually have a look at it beforehand. Yeah. Which I think is super important, just that you know what you're actually getting into. But yeah, I think you do have to be prepared for that type of stuff. Most races you have safety kits, thermals, and rain codes and stuff that you have to keep on you. Because some of the areas that you're running are just very remote, which adds to the experience.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

And do I mean in terms of the the race itself, I mean, obviously you being kind of an elite level, so do they do you go off at set intervals or do you are you set off all in one go?

SPEAKER_02 4:57

Depends on the race. So the bigger races can sometimes be set off in uh in intervals and batches. But very often the then the medium races, everyone just starts together. You just kind of put yourself into the right place in the starting

How To Think About Pace

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batches.

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Right, right. And I suppose if someone was starting out, is it in terms of pace-wise, i is the best advice to go at a slower pace as opposed to let's say I know when you run going for a particular route or uh you know on the road, then you do ha you you are thinking about pace and you know what type of pace, that kind of training, that kind of thing. So is it a case of just time to be slow slow slow down, as it were?

SPEAKER_02 5:42

Yeah, so I think it is different to road running like that. Obviously, road running most of the marathon distances and that type of thing, you can look at it and go, okay, it is 150 meters of elevation gain, and I know where those climbs are, and I just want to hit my splits. And trail running is completely different. Yeah, you do get some flat races, but most of the time it's it's gonna be very ambulating with a lot of climbing. So a lot of it's gonna be adapted to the course and to the climbing that you're gonna be doing. So, yeah, definitely gonna be quite a bit slower than your your standard road running, but a lot of it would be based around the route profile um and the sections that are gonna be runnable, sections that are gonna be more technical, and also that's gonna be adapted to the type of running that you enjoy. So if you're a very good climber, that's gonna be as fast as you you shine and you get to jump into that. And if you really enjoy descending, then that's gonna be the spot that you're gonna you know put in your big effort and try try to make a bit of ground there. So it's all very specific to the terrain, to the type of running that you enjoy, and also where you want to fit into the field. So if you're just there for enjoyment, yeah, it's definitely gonna be a lot slower. And you you really can then just take it all in. You could swim in the rivers, you can just really enjoy being outdoors and and getting some sunshine.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

Is there a particular going because obviously you could be descending and and also you're gonna be going up hills?

Climbs Descents And Technique Basics

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Do those particular terrains need a specific technique? Yes. Yes, okay, great. And and what is and what do yeah.

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So obviously with my coaching, I uh coach people specifically for certain races, they have goal races, and we'll break down the race before we get into their main training programs, and then we'll try and simulate the type of climbing that they're gonna be doing as best we can. Very often you can't throw mountains into their training. Uh-huh on weekends they can get there. But we'll we'll find massive stair stair sessions that they can try simulate the climbing as best as possible and work on power hiking and just making sure that they are adapted to that type of environment as best possible so that they don't hurt themselves too early in a race. Very similar with with descending, just try to get them out there to a similar type of environment and get them used to descending, get the gods a bit stronger, get get them used to and comfortable in those environments.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

Right. Now, I mean I know something that I've become much more aware of as I've got older is the importance of strength training, especially within my uh especially within running and and just for everyday life. But are there particular types of strength training exercises that you know if we if we're looking to enter into the sport that we should we should be thinking about doing? And is it is it something that you know you see that trail runners are kind of a different machine compared to, let's say, the normal roadrunner?

SPEAKER_02 8:38

So I think the key principle to to strength training is don't overthink it, or don't try and make things too difficult. And I think that across the board, any strength training that you're gonna be doing as an athlete is gonna you're gonna benefit from it. So

Strength Training Without The Hype

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it would only be different if, for instance, someone is doing a specific event that they can't find the terrain to train on, and then we'd have to try and make uh make do with the gym and see what we can do to simulate that type of environment to strengthen the muscles that we know they're gonna need. So but I definitely think that you know the best type of environment to train for trail running is on the trails. And then you just you know strength work. Yeah. So you you add that strength work as a benefit, yeah. Just to strengthen little things to to stop people from getting injured, that type of stuff. So I wouldn't specifically say that you know spend a lot more time in the gym if you're gonna be trail running. Spend as much time as you can in the gym, but also spend as much time as you can running.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

It's just I kind of had this image in my mind that trail runners need to be doing more because I I got injured when I was we were out in France on holiday, because I was just doing a mini 5k route or whatever, but the where the only because I couldn't f find anywhere else to run, but where the village was was kind of on a hill. And so when I finished the run, my Achilles was like burning because I wasn't used to running on a hill thing, and because it's quite it's very flat here, uh so where where I am. And I kind of imagine that being the kind of same scenario that if your c Achilles or calves aren't particularly weak, then you're not going to get you know very far without feeling that you're virtually you're gonna get injured around that area. And just like you like it it's best to to to try and be prepared for

Conditioning To Avoid Achilles Trouble

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those for that type of s terrain.

SPEAKER_02 10:32

Definitely. So I mean it all comes down to to your body adapting to that uh terrain. So again, with coaching, you you chat to your athletes and see where they have been running, what type of distances, the terrain, and then you adapt that so that you're not just throwing someone onto trails and they're gonna get get injured. So you've got to book up slowly, whereas I suppose if you're running very flat terrain and you suddenly decide you're gonna go run a very hilly fire K route, you you are gonna feel that. So yeah, it's all just conditioning the body slowly and starting off not too

Quick Note On Audio Glitch

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high.

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Now we had a bit of a technical issue with this episode as the Wi-Fi in one of the rooms in my house dropped out. Um it was at the time when I was gonna be talking about using poles in trail running. So relocated to the living room and normal service was resumed. So we you will hear Andrew saying, we were talking about poles, so it might seem a little bit confus confusing, but that's the explanation. Anyway, on with

Poles When They Help Most

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the pod.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

So we were just you were talking about uh the drinking poles.

SPEAKER_00 11:35

That's right. So this is kind of a an an additional equipment that you may need as opposed to in regular running, you don't need poles. But obviously in in in trail running, if is that even in competition, you can use poles. Is that right?

SPEAKER_02 11:53

Yes. So it definitely that all comes down to to terrain and if you've if you've been training with poles. So if it's extremely steep and you're going to be able to save a bit of the energy that you're putting onto your legs, poles make a massive difference if you're running a hundred miler with 10,000 meters of elevation gate, allowing your legs to to have a bit of a break and using your arms a bit so that you can you can you know last a little longer in the race. But it definitely comes down to training with them. It's not something that you can pull out the bag and use for the first time on race day and think that it's actually going to help you because chances are you're gonna get sore in places you never thought you could get sore.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

Right. So is there a from what you from from what I gather you're saying is that there is a particular technique to using the poles.

SPEAKER_02 12:38

Yes, definitely. So there's definitely a technique to using them. There's a couple of different techniques. Some people even use them on the downhills, but it's something that your body needs to adapt to as well. Definitely using your arms to run is something that not a lot of people really do.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

Right.

Beginner Path To First Trail Race

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For preparing for a race, are there certain things that, let's say, I'm a complete beginner or someone is a complete beginner and they come to you and they say I'm looking to do a particular event which is a trail running. Are there particular checklists that you have to go through first with them before you can think about doing the training, going tri specific training with them?

SPEAKER_02 13:18

So I definitely think that there's gonna be other races that I'd sign them up for to get them involved and get them used to trail running. It it definitely depends on the type of race. And I'd also then look at it in a whole and say, if you've never done trail running and you're signing up for a a massive hundred kilometer race overseas and you don't know it's the rain, we're definitely gonna have to look at this and see how we could work around it and and maybe maybe spend a bit more time building up before signing up to that race.

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Yeah.

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But most people that are interested in in trail running, I say if you start with your park run, maybe you can just do running on on different surfaces. That's a very good way to get started. And then start looking at a couple of shorter trail runs. Generally, most areas have shorter trail runs. Sometimes you need to head out to the country to find them. But you you can definitely look in your your local areas and find one or two races that are, you know, your 10-15 kilometer races at each level and get used to that. And then from there, once you've got used to that idea of trail running, we can put structure together, start working on on specific events and the sky's the limit.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

So is it when you're deciding to or when let's say a client of yours are deciding to move into this

Why Technical Terrain Feels Brutal

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particular space? Is there any particular things like they are surprised about? Like for instance, if I was to think of doing a half marathon or something like that, which is a pretty straightforward race, and I'm thinking, oh, it's me building up my endurance and maybe doing specific interval sessions, that kind of thing. But is there anything that they come back to you and they said, Well, blind me, I didn't realise that you know my upper body was such a significant factor or something like that. I don't know.

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I think most of the monarchies that come back uh after changing from road onto trail, they come back and say, Wow, I I actually didn't realise how much harder it was. And I think that that's a full body type of hard. And I think that's the the biggest thing that throws people out when they run their first couple of trails is if you hit a bit of a technical area on the race, to find that rhythm is actually very, very difficult. And a lot of people that have been running on the road are used to that, so that stride that they're comfortable in, and that's their mindset, that's where they find their flow. And all of a sudden, you know, you you're taking shorter steps, you're jumping over things, and you're not getting into that natural stride that you're so used to. And that's what makes trail running so hard for so many people. They they they finish a race and they go, wow, that just felt like like hard work the whole way in comparison to a road run that I felt comfortable and I flowed through. But I think that's the biggest, biggest challenge for that transition. But once you actually start making that work for you, I've got a lot of athletes that once they spent a bit of time on the trails and they've got used to that that uncomfortable rhythm, all of a sudden they they really get into it and and that's where they thrive. They'll be running with someone else who's an extremely strong roadrunner and they hit a bit of technical terrain and suddenly they know that's their sport. Yeah. So so they if you make it work for you, there's some massive benefits to it. You have to practice it a bit and get your head around it.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

Is it a question of being once like a lot of these things?

Getting Confident On Downhills

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It's kind of once you've done it a few times, you can anticipate and then what's what's going to be coming ahead of you, and therefore adapt yourself to that particular terrain.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

Yes, definitely. There's obviously a learning process to this whole thing. And the more time you spend on the trails, the more comfortable you are. And that allows you to almost push that limit a bit more. The first time you're descending on technical terrain, you you're very unsure and you don't know how how fast you can go. And generally people are running away from you, but you're a bit nervous, you don't want to hurt yourself. And the more time you spend doing that, you you find like a happy, comfortable pace that you can slowly push away at a bit more and a bit more until you're flying down the hills.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

But that like comes down to practice. It's not about finding it hard going up the hills, but it's as much finding it difficult going down the other end, as it were.

SPEAKER_02 17:21

Well, when you start, but uh once you once you got used to it, then it's uh it's not too difficult, then it's actually fun.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

Right. Great, great,

Gym Cardio When Trails Are Far

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great. I mean, on the I mean I know you you said it's very much about the specific what's the specificity of can't get my teeth in the specificity of training in terms of the trails and thinking that the only way you're gonna get better is be doing more more more trails. But but as we said, the on the in the gym side, so maybe I don't know, there may be certain times of year that you you know you can't be doing the the trails. But are there any cardio equipment that you could be doing using in the gym that can help with in terms of the stimulation? So for instance, I don't know, a stair climber or maybe a that that that kind of equipment.

SPEAKER_02 18:15

Yes, definitely. I mean, I think in general, cardio, if you're gonna spend time in a gym, there there's a lot of exercise machines that you could use. I've actually got an athlete who's running a hundred miler in the middle of November, beginning of December.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

Yeah.

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And he works on a yacht. And most of his build-up to it was actually on a rowing ergo and an assault bike. And we managed to put programs together as well as strength training, ankle and and foot exercises and eccentric loading do to strengthen everything. And he did six weeks on the yacht. He he came back to South Africa, and it was actually incredible to see the progress that he made. Right. And he was actually he was outrunning some of the athletes that have been running on trails. I definitely think that these are types of things that it's it is a challenge. But if you address it with the right mindset and and the guys get into it, you can definitely adapt your body to be able to run on trails with with limited access to trails.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

So if you put the work in and it's not as if like because you're doing other types of cardio, that necessarily mean you're unprepared for doing the trails itself.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

Definitely. I mean, I think obviously we we you have to structure the program correctly so that you're getting the most out of your sessions, but it's it's definitely possible.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

Right. I say, I mean, what was when he was on the was he doing exercises on the boat? Let's say did he have like a cattle bell or something like that, and you're able to do specific exercises that he could so he can get a full body workout.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

Yes. He had limited equipment, but kettlebells and that type of stuff. And we was I was putting programs together for him and making sure that he was he was strengthening everything that I felt needed to be strengthened, was what is adding that cardio and making the most of his time. He did spend a lot of time strengthening feet and ankles and and you know doing doing a lot of exercises to get that little bit more benefit from the things that some people aren't doing because he had the time to do it.

Falling In Love With Trail Running

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Right. Can I ask you what what made you I know this is a bit off tangent, but what made you fall in love with trail running?

SPEAKER_02 20:16

I think when as a kid I always enjoyed the outdoors. And the first time I ran went into you know proper mountains, the Drakensburg, up to 3,000 meters above sea level, and it's incredible. Yeah. And I think that's the ability to to spend time in the mountains or on trails is something that I I never take for granted. And then linking that to trail running, I really think there's something special about being able to put on a pair of shoes and backpack, and you can go run a hundred kilometers, two hundred kilometers if you you fit enough. And I think that that's something that no one should take for granted to be able to create a body that's healthy enough to take you out there and go on adventures. There's so much cool stuff to see in the world. Yes. And trail running is it's one of those tools to to experience more from life.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

So moving on from that is let's say, I mean, like you said, I think one has to think about the safety aspect.

Staying Safe When Running Solo

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Obviously, if you're in a competition, then that's kind of you know dealt with already. But from a let's say if you decided to go a trail running by yourself and you there was a specific trail which has been used, what safety issues do we have to be thinking about?

SPEAKER_02 21:31

I think first of all, you really want to let people know where you're going. I think that's key. Even basic trails, if you're heading out by yourself, let people know where you're going. Always take a cell phone and you could share your location. I think nowadays we're so lucky with technology that even though you're alone, you never actually have to be alone. No, that's true, yes. Probably probably the most important. But then from there, it all depends on where you're going. But a headlamp is always uh a nice one to have thermals, a raincoat, so that if it does get cold, you're not going to freeze. I've had some some very gnarly experiences in the mountains where I haven't taken a headlamp and I've definitely learned my lessons.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Oh, right.

unknown 22:07

Okay.