Milestone Welcome And Guest Intro

SPEAKER_01 0:00

So you're thinking about running, but not sure how to take the first step. My name is Brian Patterson, and I'm here to help. Welcome to Brian's RomPod. Well, today I've just realized that we have reached a milestone. We've done over 200 episodes, and we have a very special guest to mark this occasion. Today we're talking to Amanda Brown, who has a master's degree in sports psychology. And as I understand it, is thinking about studying her PhD or doing further studies. We're going to be talking about the mental side of running. It's not about intervals, tempo runs, and long runs. It's how we can prepare mentally for competition and also what happens when we get injured. So Amanda is also an LTA accredited tennis coach, but more of that later. Let's give Amanda a warm Brian's Run pod. Welcome. And they go. That's it. Thank you. Thank you very much, Amanda, for coming on. And it's really much appreciated. And I love tapping into these other areas of running, which maybe people don't. It's all about the coaching and

Amanda’s Sporting Background In Tennis

SPEAKER_01 1:40

the interval running and and that kind of thing. But also there's a mental side to it. But before we get into that, I just wanted to find out a little bit about you in terms of what was your were you into your sports when you were growing up at school? And has sport been a big part of your life in your family and and how you got to where you were today are today?

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Yes, I I'm I was always sporty. I love to say I won sports, say, when I was seven, and then Jim Carner when I was seven. Um I did gymnastics when I was seven. I played tennis when I was seven. I was very privileged as a child to have the option of playing a wide range of sports. I learned to play cricket, softball, I played football in the playground. I just, I just always loved it. I love sports. My mum was a county hockey player, and my dad is an engineer who's obsessed with skill and technique in tennis. I really I grew up with it. I played tennis at county level, I played tennis at regional level, and then I had a national ranking as a junior of tennis, and that just continued on in terms of I became a coach quite young, helped out with a lot of coaching, and sports always been a really, really big part of my life.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

So when you're if you can correct me, when you're nationally ranked, how does that mean you can play internationally or how does it feed into the into that?

SPEAKER_00 3:11

So so you kind of go from club level to county level, which means you're playing club level tournaments, then you're playing county or you play East Sussex versus Kent. Okay. And then you start to play at the regional level. So you play South East Region against Southwest Region, and then at national level, I started playing the national competitions, junior competitions, and at Fisham Abbey.

SPEAKER_04 3:37

Oh, I see.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

And so at that point, and very, very young, 13, when I was when I was young, you had to make a decision then about do you focus on your schoolwork? Do you do all nine GCSCs or do you do five GCSCs and write you know the the the line? It it's a pretty young age to make a decision like that. My parents were very my mother particularly was very not keen on limiting those choices at that age.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Because I've we will get to the main subject, but I know with the Andy Murray was her was it people have said that it's her mother was kind of his mother rather was the driving force into getting them to, let's say, I think did they train us in Spain or something like that, and to get them to that top level?

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Andy went to Spain quite young. His brother didn't. He he went through the LTA system. Don't know how much I can talk about. Well it's been made public that Andy Murray and Judy Murray were not impressed with how Jamie Murray went through the certainly when I was younger it was it's it's a little bit tricky. And I mean one of the biggest problems we have here is the weather. You don't being outdoors, and there aren't enough indoor facilities even now, anywhere near, to really get a wider body of young people up and competing and playing. So we have a very narrow competition group very s very early in the UK in

Why Sports Psychology Matters Beyond Sport

SPEAKER_00 5:05

tennis, and it doesn't tend to serve us well when we go out and play against kids from Spain who have had, you know, beautiful, great big tennis courts and sunshine all year round. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

So right, I know before the podcast started you said you had well, you had four children and you've had quite an extensive career in podcasting. And then you decided to go into to do a master's in sports psychology. What prompted you to to do that? Could could you have done, you know, gone into business or could or was it there was something about the mental side of sport that attracted you to to take it up academically?

SPEAKER_00 5:47

I so I was running businesses. I I I had, as well as working in podcasting, I had my own startup at one point, so I was a CEO, terrifyingly. And the reason that I wanted to study sports psychology was because over and over again in my business life, my sports life and my sports mentality served me so incredibly useful. Right in terms of mental toughness, in terms of performing under pressure, in terms of managing expectations, other people's psychological safety. There's an awful lot of crossover between what you learn about how to manage your emotions in sport as to how you can apply that in a in a business setting. They're both kind of crucibles and sports venues. And I was from I remember as a child thinking, oh, I'm having all these really massive feelings, anxiety at the beginning of a match, or whatever it is, or excitement, and then the drop of adrenaline. And what is this and how how does it work? And why does it and and and looking around at coaches and at the forums that I was going to and the coaching weekends that I was being sent to, and and there was just nothing really there at the time. Nobody, nobody was talking about the mental side, other than your coach, who was naturally kind of incorporating certain aspects of sports psychology, but not the full academic understanding and study of it. And having gone into it and studied it, it settled a lot of things for me remarkably clearly, especially around things like self-talk, anxiety. Just it's just really given a very clear pathway with good backing and research as to how best to tackle some of these things that I think come up for all of us. You don't have to be a top elite sport to get nervous before a run.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

Yes, I know. Yeah. Or going for a race or something like that. But if I was to play devil's advocate for younger athletes, is it not enough to say to them, well, why not just enjoy it? rather than try to come. No?

SPEAKER_00 7:57

I would say I would say it's even more important for young athletes. I did work placement for a term at Dalwich College with their elite athletes at the end of last academic year. And what I found working with, I was working with elite rowers, rugby players, swimmers, hockey players, football players. And what I found was A, they were looking for specifically for sports psychology on social media, on YouTube. They were looking for information about it and how to use it and how it could give them an edge. Some of them, their coaches, were talking a lot about it now and and having it as a structure as a specific structure under which they were learning. And the thing for young people I think that's so important in sports psychology is being given a solid framework from which they can know to move forward confidently in how they manage their mental health. Because playing sport, right, can have, and being an athlete can have a big impact on our mental health. And we hear all the time about the positives of it. It's good for you to be fit and it's good for you to work out. But if you're competing, really at any level, even recreational, there are certain things that get into the head that maybe aren't so mentally healthy, that maybe don't serve you so well, and also it robs the joy out of it.

SPEAKER_03 9:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

It seems really evident to me that building from, especially with youth, but for anybody really, building from a base of actually just understanding A, what's going on with you, and B, what the research and evidence says works with that or against that, but gives you this really lovely framework from which uh to elevate your experience of sport.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

It's having the tools, having a toolbox being able to manage these things. Just as back to the basics, to

What Sports Psychology Actually Does

SPEAKER_01 9:50

what is, let's say, sport psychology as opposed to itself? Is it just a case of sports psychology is your you're using psychology to help you to improve performance?

SPEAKER_00 10:04

That's a really good question. And it's one that I had when I started because I thought I've done tr therapy therapy, traditional Yungian therapy, and I kind of thought, it always doesn't that always come back to our childhoods. Come down to those core psychological elements. And in some ways, yes, it does. But what's really great about sports psychology is it is really focused on the crucible of sport, how you how sport impacts a person. And I do think, and it makes a difference on which sport it is that you're, you know, you're dealing with because different sports put different sorts of pressures on you. I would say that sports psychology it borrows from and takes from wider psychological themes or theories, but theories within sport psychology itself and frameworks have been developed which are specifically useful in sport. Actually, I think they're useful, they're again useful wider, but when it comes to sport, it gives you that real focus. Um, because otherwise you can start to thread out into relationships and you know how you feel on a day-to-day basis. And those I think those things are really important, and I think those things have a have a place. But the wonderful thing about sports psychology is it allows you to completely focus on sport and what works in sport.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

I know you've dealt with that you've done sports psychology with teams and individuals. So obviously running is an individual sport, and is there a massive difference to what you advise?

SPEAKER_00 11:44

I I shouldn't advise. I think my my role really is listening, first of all, to to what the individual if if we're working in a one-to-one, it's what's going on for you. And there's there's a number of things within sports. So you've got you've kind of got a specific box of of specific things that are both positive and negative, and it's about sifting through those things and working out how what's going to be optimal for you for your performance from that research. With teams, and uh I do I also do workshops. So even in tennis, you have doubles, which is a team sport, which tennis players really struggle with because fundamentally it's a very individual sport like running, and that requires, as you say, quite a different mindset to a team sport. And what's really interesting is watching looking at the requirements and the crossover between that individual sport and a team sport, which are which are different. When you're working in a team sport, you need to be thinking about the cohesion of the team. Although really interesting in the research, team cohesion doesn't necessarily mean everybody getting on brilliantly. So it's so when you go in depth, it's a little bit more complex. And I really like that because I think otherwise it seems like you kind of get these platitudinous, this this is what works, rugby team, now go and win. And we all know in reality things don't work like that. People are, you know, everybody's an individual, and you've got to make all that work cohesive as a team. Whereas for individual sports, I love individual sports, having played one myself as well, and having been an act, not least because you have complete control over your own environment, or at least you should recognise you have complete control over your own environment. And I think we can get to a bit more of that as we go on, but I think but for an individual sport that that's a very crucial element.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

Yeah. It's interesting that dynamic in the teams be I'm I'm massively into Formula One, and it's

Individual Versus Team Mindsets

SPEAKER_01 13:50

like you have two drivers who are in a team who are supposedly working as a team, but at the end of the day, there is the old acronym in Formula Formula One that the the the key person you need to be is your teammate because they have the same equipment is kind of that Lammy is like dichotomy.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

Go ahead. Well, no, I was just I was gonna say that kind of competition is i is something that you have to take on board and get and get really engaged with. And I think the people that are successful at that thing, they don't kind of go, oh well I'm not gonna think about the fact that I'm gonna have to get out there and my mate Brian's gonna be in the other car, but I'm gonna Yeah that you actually have to get into an individual mindset there in order to win a race.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

So in your experience when you're dealing with people, maybe runners or people who are indiv who are doing who are individuals in doing individual sports, where do you feel that there's a gap there in terms of it's not just about doing the intervals and the long runs and that kind of thing? Where do you feel, in a very generic way, that you feel that maybe the mental approach can help them with their training and obviously with that going forward into their performance?

SPEAKER_00 15:21

Well, I think we we're so used to training our bodies and and and it seems completely bizarre to me in this day and age with the knowledge that we have on on how much our minds impact and affect our our bodies physically, let alone how we operate them. We know that that they're not disconnected.

SPEAKER_04 15:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

Hopefully.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

Yeah. Sundays maybe.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

If you're having one of those fuzzy moments.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

Christmas time.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

We're looking at a whole system

Mind Training For Runners

SPEAKER_00 15:55

and the brain operates. Yes. And why would you do leg day and arm day and and s and core day, not do mind day?

SPEAKER_04 16:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

Because the research shows there's an immense amount of benefit to doing that mental work. When you talk about doing reps and doing doing practices, doing mental reps and practices, and it it doesn't have to be onerous. I'm not telling anyone to meditate, particularly as a person who really struggles and has never managed to get that zen in her life. But there are things that you can practice.

unknown 16:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

Simple things to change your mindset into a place that allows your body to be more efficient and to have a better performance. And I would I'd never walk in and say, I can guarantee a better performance, but I would like to build up with a client always so that they enjoy what they're doing. Yeah. What are we doing here?

SPEAKER_03 16:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

Yeah. You can introduce them to the fact that they can think about that. It's like, for instance, oh, I've just started running, and then maybe someone might say to them, Well, have you ever thought done strength training? And then maybe if you are into it, then maybe this could be that next level and doing some kind of mental skill training to to add to that.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

A hundred percent. How long do you spend looking at running shoes and comparing them online for the best kind of running shoe to eat? But you're not spending you're not spending five minutes three times a week going through your thought process, maybe visualising if you're competing with your running, maybe visualizing the the start, the first the first mile, how you're gonna pace it. You're not you're not you're not actually putting any

Self-Talk And Self-Compassion In Practice

SPEAKER_00 17:45

considered thought or work toward towards that. Yeah. But you've spent maybe three hours comparing the the heels on a parent train.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

So on that, so I've got down here key tools, things like self-talk. What what does what does that mean?

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Oh, self-talk, my old friend. I discovered in the course of my master's research that self-talk, my personal self-talk is atrocious. I had thought that everybody was this horrible to themselves, but quite as terrible on the whole. But self-talk is particularly interesting because it it replicates itself and the way that you talk to yourself impacts your outcomes and it impacts how you perform directly. Directly impacts it. The research has shown how if you talk to yourself negatively, especially consistently negatively, you do have worse outcomes. You tell yourself, interesting, oh, I keep stuffing it in the net, or oh, I keep dragging my left foot, oh, you're useless. You're in it or you're useless today. I'm being useless today. You you wouldn't say it to a friend. And the reason that you wouldn't say it to a friend is particularly nowadays, is that we know how damaging that actually is. It's not sticks and stones. You're actually taking a stick and you're beating your friend with it. You're telling them you'd never tell your friend they're useless because the you know the left leg isn't at pace or whatever it is. But we do it to ourselves and we do it to ourselves. It's a perfectionist issue. We do it to ourselves because there's this wide myth that we're spurring ourselves on. Be horrible to yourself because then, oh, it's like it's like the stick to the donkey's bum. We're stirring ourselves on, and then we're gonna make ourselves faster. And we all almost all of us, especially of a certain age, believe that. Underneath, like, well, yes, you do have to be a bit hard on yourself and do have to push yourself. Yes, you have to push yourself. Yes, you have to hold yourself to account. But no, being horrible to yourself doesn't work. And in fact, it makes you rigid. And rigid makes you less resilient, nothing.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

I suppose it's like, even in very simple terms, it's like, oh you you're going for a job interview, and it's you're kind of saying to yourself, oh bet I don't get this job thing. And what are you doing is you're just cre increasing the likelihood, the probability of it happening.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

You you actually are in real time. The research, there's so much research on this.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

And the research there's a body of research, and it is it is very clear from it that that is you talk your outcomes.

SPEAKER_03 20:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

You talk so so you you step up to that start line and you go, Oh, I'm I I I'm not feeling today. This is gonna be a terrible run. It is now.

SPEAKER_04 20:39

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

As opposed to you step up to that start line and you think, okay, I'm a little bit nervous, but I'm gonna give it my all and I'm gonna try and enjoy this. The the outcomes are very significantly different.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

I know just from personally, for an example, a few weeks back, I was came back from holiday, sort of recovering I got injured on holiday. And anyway, and I always found when I go out for a run, then maybe the first 10-15 minutes is a bit nightmarish. You're thinking, why the hell may am I doing this at eight o'clock in the morning? And and I think I kind of just said to myself, just go at a slower pace. And and I just found it so I even set parameters on my watch and and just to just to go at a much slower pace and just to enjoy it. And I just found I I could have gone on forever, and he was just so enjoyable the fact that I I just felt so fulfilled afterwards and I hadn't felt like that for maybe a couple of years. And I and I think from what you've just said, it just that's just enforced it. Reinforced it.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

Well, thank you very much. Really beautiful. What? Exactly. Self compassion. If what you're describing is self compassion. You compare to yourself, okay, I've been injured. I'm not expecting a top performance for myself. And as a result, you enjoy the run more.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Yes.

Visualisation And Building Familiarity

SPEAKER_01 22:10

A lot of people talk about visualization in sports. You hear it a lot in professional sports. For someone who's the everyday runner, how how can that how can we use that?

SPEAKER_00 22:25

I think visualization can be particularly useful if you suffer from starting nerves, if you stuff suffer from anxiety before the beginning of a competition. I think that's an area where visualization is extremely helpful because what you're doing is getting your body and your mind used to being in that environment, thinking about that environment rather than trying not to think about it, coming into it and having your adrenaline drop and your nerves shoot up in an unfamiliar environment. The more familiar you are with your environment, the better it is. And they go beyond visualization. Olympic athletes are classic for this. They always try and go to the venue and go back and forth from wherever they're staying to the venue multiple times before they compete. Because again, the evidence shows if you're more familiar with the environment, there's less wide eye movement, there's less the anxiety can be quelled a little bit, it feels more familiar. Familiarity, visualization helps bring on familiarity and it helps put you in that position to a certain extent. I personally, I think all these tools can be useful depending on the kind of thinker you are. But for me, I like to focus on positive psychology, specifically flourishing psychology, which is a huppet and so research from 2013. And the reason for that is going back to what you were just talking about your post-injury or your injury run. Because it's a wider concept about enjoying your sport more. And I think visualization, anything CBT cognitive behavioural therapy orientated, again it depends what kind of kind of mind you have.

SPEAKER_04 24:16

Yes, of course.

SPEAKER_00 24:17

It's very effective. And for other people, I think for me, my mind's a little scattier than that.

SPEAKER_03 24:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

Or a little moves in a different way. And so so for me it's about focusing on things like competence, optimism, self-esteem, meaning, positive emotions.

SPEAKER_03 24:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

Emotional stability. Yes. So that I'm coming from that ask it.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

Yes. Because I understand that obviously it's a very individual thing. And we can only give very generic tools. But if you wanted to really get into the nuanced of it, then it would be something that you'd have to do with a may have to do may do with a professional. And then they can see where you are what's best suited to you.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

I think I d I don't understand. I have people come to me as a tennis coach who say, My backhand isn't working. And then we hit, you know, two baskets of backhands and they're out beautiful and it's it's working perfectly. And I say, What are you talking about? Your backhand is is great. And they say, Oh, well, it wasn't working the other day because I was playing this person and they make me really nervous and it just went it just went to pot. And so, yeah, the long answer to to what you're saying is is yes. The short answer is yes. Working with someone on what really works for you, um, it makes a difference, I think, a much bigger difference in the way that you would go to a coach, the way that you would go to a strength and conditioning person to work for that. And you don't, it doesn't have to go on and on and on. You can do four sessions or you can do 12 sessions. But that said, if something like visualization works for you, say say you get really panicked before the start of the race and and it's unpleasant and it's too much, you're

Nerves, Performance, And The Bell Curve

SPEAKER_00 26:10

you're over-anxious. Because of course, nerves are a very good thing before you can keep it through. That's right. Yes, yes. You'll you'll know about this. But you're there there's a bell curve for for nerves in competition. And at the bottom of that bell curve is antipathy, meh, don't don't care, not bothered. And you don't you don't want to be there at the beginning of a competition because you know the blood's not gonna be up, the adrenaline's not gonna be there, you're just you're just gonna walk it, whatever, walk. Then you co come up to the top of the curve, which is the the perfect level of nerves, which is where you feel, as one of my lecturers said, nerve-sighted. This his it was his child. I'm nerve-sighted. You're a bit nervous, you're a bit excited. Okay. Adrenaline's up. Nerve sighted. Sorry, sealing that completely from that core child, but it's a brilliant expression of it. And it really is that's the top of the bell curve. You want a little bit of nerves, you want you want to get going, you want to be aware, you want to be focused, and that helps with all of that. The nerves help with all of that. Then you tilt down the other side of the bell curve and you get to over-arouse.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

Panicked.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

Your eyes are darting everywhere, looking for the lion.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

I was gonna say, I mean, it does first sound very kind of animalistic type for a primal type thing. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

That's exactly right. We are we're built we're built for that. And it and that's when you know you can't concentrate, you you're you're not breathing well, you're panicking, you might you might be sick, all of all of those aspects. And as a runner, you'll know that you only really want to be sick at the end of the race.

unknown 27:48

That's true.